As a business owner, it’s difficult to do the right work AND guide your company toward its next big initiative.
With Red Direction Business Base Camp, learn how to implement and handle processes to meet your business’s specific needs and better understand your market.
Starting the conversation:
Intentional conversations, especially in sales, allow us to find the right time for the services offered. To fully step into a conversation to find sales opportunities requires credibility, self-awareness, and a system.
Host: Jess Dewell
Guests: Kathleen Winsor-Games
What You Will Hear:
Asking good questions is a key element of intentional conversations. Planning ahead (know your prospect), knowing what the purpose of the dialog is (where you are in the sales cycle), and creating a safe space to share problems (allow in curiosity) is time well spent. Your system and self-awareness allow you to find the right time to create ways to work together. Join Jess Dewell as she talks with Kathleen Winsor-Games about the Big IF of Sales Success.
ANNOUNCER 00:03 Welcome, this is the Bold Business Podcast, your business has many directions that can travel, the one true direction of your company creates the journey for you to move toward a new, exciting level. We call this the Red Direction. In today’s program, we delve into one idea. The idea will support you as you work on ever-present situations, including how to stay competitive in a changing market, how to break through the business plateau, and how to anticipate the changing expectations of your stakeholders. Jess Dewell is your guide. Jess brings you a 20-year track record of Business Excellence, where strategy and operations overlap. Your Path comes from consistently working from the special place, your unique true north.
Jess Dewell: 00:51 Everybody on LinkedIn and YouTube will be able to join us and I know they’ll get notified that we are on air at the moment, Kathleen, so we’re gonna get started. Okay, I’m excited today to do this live stream. Not only is it a Friday, it is a Friday in the middle of March. In Colorado, we have we still have a lot of snow and we’re going to get some more. And I know the weather’s nice other places, but that’s okay. Because in the end, we’re on the computer right now we’re not in the snow, we’re not playing outside, whether we like the snow or not doesn’t even matter. And I want to just say you’re in the right place for conversations right now, specifically to increase your own capacity, specifically to increase the capacity of how you lead how you show up in your role and how you add value to your organization. You see, the Bold Business Podcast and the live streams we do within that are all about the skills we need to become more resilient in business. And today, we’re talking about what is the big F of sales success. And with me is Kathleen Windsor games. And I know that I’m excited to have her here today. Kathleen, will you please introduce yourself? Sure. Thank you so much just for having me on today. I’m Kathleen Windsor games, I am with achievement dynamics Sandler Training office. And what we do is we are business growth advisors. And what does that mean? It means that we help sales teams and sales leaders to get out of their own way and increase their sales success, increase their sales revenue, put a stop to the frustration of prospects ghosting them are the sales team discounting in order to win business. And we really help sales leaders to put in a system that keeps their salespeople accountable, but also working in a very inspired culture where they want to stay and they want to grow. I love it. And everybody I know you may know me, I’m going to take a moment to introduce myself as well just doodle here, host of the Bold Business Podcast, strategic business advisor, thinking about all things growth, strategy, exit planning, how to have more fun again and again, in business. And as a consensus builder, as a culture advocate, as an operational executive with lots and lots of experience. I am excited to be here today. Because here’s the thing we’re providing at Red Direction, customizable, unique frameworks that are designed for leadership teams to fail faster, and bounce higher. And sales touches every single part of our organization. So when Kathleen and I were having a conversation, I really, really, really recognized the need for this conversation right now. We’re coming into a time where, what nature is going to be calling us outside and away from the computer. We’re coming. We’re in the middle still of a time where computers are everything, the way we do business and distraction is probably higher, higher and highest that it has been even if we thought it was high before. And so when we learn to ask the right questions, when we learn to discern what’s going on, we can then really be present in what we’re doing. And recognize the distractions we can let go of, and the ones that we actually must pay attention to. And so thinking about that thinking about right now, anchoring in and being present, you know, we’re all in sales. It does not matter what our role, we are all in sales. So you’re in the right place for this conversation today.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 04:43 Well, absolutely jazz, every one of us needs to influence in our roles. And that might mean influencing the person we report to. I call that managing up. It might mean building a coalition inside your own organization with stakeholders managing out across that organization. And it certainly means if you’re in a leadership role managing down, but doing so with humility and influence and earning the right to influence. So those are all sales-related?
Jess Dewell: 05:20 Oh, well, you know, all of those, I would say, punctuate the end of that statement with a credibility period. And so when I’m thinking about sales, and I’m thinking about showing up, whether it’s managing up, whether that’s creating a presentation, whether that’s public speaking, influencing, to your point, you know, it makes it really makes me wonder what, what becomes necessary to have a good credible foundation with which to approach a conversation, you know, you want to become a sales conversation?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 05:58 Very good question. Well, I think one of the things that we find in our training that is very common, is people have a lot of head trash about selling as a, as a profession. And there’s a lot of messages that we have many of them negative from childhood, that it’s not okay to talk about money. And in business, whether you are a salesperson, or you’re the owner, or you’re in the C suite, we have to talk about money, you know, one time or another, and we don’t want those negative messages to get in our way. And one of the things that I love about what I do is I get to help people break down those barriers, I get to help people surface and clarify that maybe they’ve been carrying that head trash around in their head. And maybe there’s this inner dialogue going on. And there’s this little chatter in somebody’s head, is there in the sales process that maybe they’re scared to bring up the budget? And we help people overcome that. And how do we do that? Well, here’s what we taught people just, it’s so true that, that there are some things in life, we can control. And there are other things that we cannot control. So what we focus on in Sandler is what we call the success triangle. So it’s got three points, just like all triangles, true. So the three points of that triangle, our behavior, attitude, and technique. And really, the behavior is what drives it. Because if you change your behavior, it’s going to help you change your attitude. So it’s all about getting better in each of these areas, day by day, to help you become aware of the head trash, so you can positively deal with that. take away some of that fear, help you be courageous and put some real tools in your hands that you can use, that are practical, and authentic, and help you just show up in the sales process. And that’s really just the beginning of having a system for selling.
Jess Dewell: 08:05 That’s true. And it’s a good system for selling because oh, who was it that said 90% of everything is showing up? Who said?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 08:13 That’s right. Yeah, and I don’t remember who originally said that. But, but it is 90% of everything. And, again, what we discover as we go through the process with our clients is that most people don’t have a system in place. They don’t know the steps that they need to take. They get a little bit lost sometime they find that they’re chasing prospects and trying to get people to call them back. They’re getting ghosted, and they’re frustrated by that. They’re frustrated by having to discount and that kind of goes back to that head trash about.
Jess Dewell: 08:46 Yay, yeah, it’s, that’s interesting. I love triangles, by the way. And so because I do love triangles are in this is this is something that comes up every once in a while I am a practice member, which means basically, I go to, I go to a chiropractor, and we’re called practice members. And in network spinal analysis, there’s all kinds of great information. And there’s a triangle in there called the triad of change that Donnie Epstein created. And it actually talks about perception, behavior and structure. And so when you were talking about behavior, attitude and technique, there are some similarities across those two things, depending on how you like it line it up, even though they’re coming from two lenses. And so that’s something that’s exciting to me, because, you know, I was talking. I was talking recently with Mickey Desai. And Mickey was telling me, he doesn’t believe in empowerment, or he’s confused sometimes by empowerment. Let me say it both ways because I may be remembering wrong and Ultimately, besides that starting point, is that he believes that all of us have the power within ourselves. And so that’s where the question about, well, what is empowerment, if I’m giving you power, that doesn’t make sense, because you already have the power. However, I might be lending you my belief in you, so that you can jumpstart to get going. Whereas some of us are like, I got this No problem, our confidence level, right? We’re willing to ask, waiting cooperation. Exactly. Right. And some of us are like, well, if I can’t do this, and somebody else is gonna believe in me, and I don’t have the confidence and somebody else is gonna believe in me, maybe, if I just have a flow to follow?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 10:42 I think that perception, behavior and structure triangle sounds fascinating. And it sounds really aligned with, with what we talked about with the behavior, attitude and technique. That’s, yeah. Fascinating.
Jess Dewell: 10:54 And having it because you know, his applies to like, how we show up in the world is the show apart, which is the other reason it came to mind for me this morning. And then yours is this, I’m guessing yours is specifically like the starting line to the sales process that and the sales system that you teach people, right?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 11:11 Yeah, we got to get some of these things aligned inside ourselves before, we’re ready to take in the knowledge of what the steps in a great system are. And if we’re, if we’re trying to take on a new system, learn what those steps are, and put that into place day by day, if the head trash is getting in our way that can stop us. But again, here’s the jumpstart,
Jess Dewell: 11:35 it’s true. And I’m going to go back to that credibility piece. Because I’m wondering if it’s even self credibility and self Gus, have we earned that right? To do that?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 11:44 Right. That’s, that’s absolutely true. We talk about conviction an awful lot in our Sandler Training, that you’re not going to earn any more than you think you deserve. And so really looking at the psychology of ourselves and trying to build a foundation of a really positive and healthy psychology and our interactions with other people. And words, like respect and dignity come up. And words like having equal stature when, when you’re in that process. And that’s a new thought for some people who are in sales. You know, what I have found that helps, that helps in every walk of life, even if it’s getting motivated to get out of bed, some mornings, or it’s motivated to work late when I need to work late, or my personal values, and really being able to fall back into them as my true north GSG, you have personal values that you live by every day. As a matter of fact, I do have a proprietary tool that I built in the practice I had before I joined achievement dynamics, I call it success criteria. It is about finding your true north. And it is all about aligning values, strengths, your purpose, your desired culture, environment, the kind of impact that you want to have in your work, the scope of that, along with lifestyle considerations. And for some people, it’s the kinesthetic environment they need to be in and then compensation comes in there. But as we go through and do a stack ranking of that, I’ve never had anyone put the money before the values. And they come to the recognition that the money is the outcome of getting all the other pieces to align. Yeah, so that fits really well in what I’m doing here with Sandler. dovetail?
Jess Dewell 13:42 Absolutely. So tell us one of your values now I’m curious.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 13:46 Oh, all right. Well, one of my values is working with purpose and impact. Uh-huh. That is very highly held. And that just comes from a place of seeking to help people uncover their own potential, reflecting that back to them in a way that is more concrete than maybe they had ever seen it before helping them crystallize that take action on it, and helping them move to whatever that next level may be for them, meeting them where they are today, but helping them dream bigger, and just break down the barriers that may be internal or external, wherever they may be, just helping them breakthrough that. So they get to that next level in their life. And that’s professional and personal.
Jess Dewell: 14:30 Right? I know. And I have you know, that’s interesting because I have something that I created to only because I needed it and I couldn’t find it anywhere else. And so I kind of wish I had known about your proprietary tool who knew right?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 14:47 Ah, ah, but you are all about creating what’s not there. I mean, that’s just something I immediately picked up on you is that you are very resourceful and very creative, and I See you connecting dots and new ways that maybe they haven’t been connected before. Yeah. And that’s really intriguing.
Jess Dewell: 15:08 And I love that you what you shared. But thank you. And I love that what you shared about which value you chose that applies to all of them. Because, you know, I was like, well, I just want to be me sometimes. So I have to be me, even in my, I have to be me, even as a mom, I have to be even when I decided to volunteer places. So what does that look like? And how do I be true to that? And then I was like, Well, if that’s the case, well, then how do I be true to my marriage and my partnership? Am I right? The household the that I have created, I’m a part of, to be actively engaged in both scenarios work through messy situations, right? You can add work to this at this point, too. Yes. And so the way that we, what we value in our household is different than my personal values. And what I, what I realized when we were going through this, when I was going through this process was that, hey, I actually get to bring all of me into my household values. How cool is that?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 16:07 Well, and that’s important in life, otherwise, a lot of energy gets wasted. And you don’t get to accomplish the things that are really meaningful to you that energy gets, you know, blocked, or it’s cut off, or you’re not really your, your full self.
Jess Dewell: 16:23 Yeah and the same was true. So then I was like, well, the way we run our household is not the way I run my business. And so you’ve got to show up differently there. And so my business values are also not my values for a variety of reasons. Ultimately, it was because there was no way I was going to be doing this by myself. And if I made it, if I made my business values about me, and only, it would be really hard for other people to hitch their wagons and be a part of this for, for a true, impactful contribution themselves. And so I am, I have my own values for me as a person only. However, the value sets that set up how the work is done at Red Direction, how we show up and be a family in our household, and how do we interact with the world as a family? How do we work as a team? And how do we show up to the world as a team at Red Direction, we all have to be able to step into I call it the party, we all have to be able to come to the party, and somebody is holding all the values, it’s kind of like, well, we automatically lack some inclusiveness, we automatically recognize there’s going to be some sort of a dialogue. And sometimes that place of managing up won’t even work. And so I was cognizant of that knowing what I know now from all of the experiences that I had, how important it was that everybody understands their contribution to be able to understand that. And that brings us back to the sales piece. You know, if you’re not in, if you’re not in a sales role, or you’re in a role, you know, should do sales, but you really don’t like it. Well, then what Kathleen?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 17:57 Well, I say get a system, right?
Jess Dewell: 18:03 Hey, don’t ever ask a question you don’t know the answer to usually I don’t know the answer, I guess. I was right. gadling.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 18:11 thought that might be it. Wonder wonder what led to that conclusion. And we get lost if we don’t have a system. If we don’t have a roadmap, I don’t know where we are? Well, you’ve heard this one before. But I’m gonna say it anyway, that, you know, any, you can take any road or any road will get you there, if you don’t know where you’re going, right. Any road will get you there if you don’t know where you’re going. And let’s figure out where we’re going. But let’s have a system and a process, that we can follow this reliable, that’s repeatable, and learn the nuances of all of those steps along the way, and implement that so that if we are in sales, we’re filling the sales pipeline with qualified prospects and buyers who want to be on the journey with us. And as I’ve mentioned to you Sandler uses a lot of really positive human psychology to help us become better listeners that are questioners asking deeper, more meaningful questions, but from a place where we’ve earned some credibility and trust. And people don’t feel like we’re going in for the clothes because we’ve set really safe upfront contracts that tell people this is where we’re going. And this is what we’re going to talk about. And that safety allows people to open up and say, what’s really going on and then you get to explore and discover, are we a fit or not? And oh, by the way, if we’re not a fit, it’s, it’s okay. Yeah, it really is. Okay. I can say no, you could say no. And that’s a beautiful thing.
Jess Dewell: 19:52 Beautiful Thing. So true. Okay, use that. A lot of words. We could have entire conversation about that will happen. And when we’re really smart, we’ll get them recorded. Right. And one of those was around let’s, let’s talk about safety. Because here’s the thing, if we’re lacking confidence, or we really want to follow this thing, or we really need to get a close, for some reason, we’re having outside pressure of some sort, and, or inside pressure of some sort. There’s this internal need to show up and do this thing. But there are these external weights that are helping, helping us get better at reinforcing our head trash and having a little bit of confidence lack or imposter syndrome, or, you know, you name it. So let’s, I want to talk about this safety piece because I actually think this is a roadmap that could be laid out every single time that if we were following something, this would be the one to follow to create that solid connection, right?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 20:53 Yes, that’s right. Yeah. So where do we start talking about that? What, what, what is a good question from you that starts that conversation?
Jess Dewell 21:09 That was actually going to be my question. So where do we start? By asking that question, so hang on.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 21:17 So I’ll tell you, a big hint, from, from my point of view, is acknowledging the head trash and doing a little bit of work to understand what your strengths are as an individual, and what string specifically you have in sales, and what gaps you have, okay, and all of that is, in my world, I come from a position of playing to people’s strengths. We’re not out to fix people because they’re not broken. And the way that people are going to feel safe. learning these skills and getting training on sales is to understand that what we’re, what we’re about, again, is playing to their strengths, and then helping them address the gaps and get better. Because when we have awareness, and when we start using the behaviors that we’re trained to do in the Sandler system, that helps us start building confidence. And all of this is just based on again, positive human psychology having a good questioning system, having good bonding and rapport building skills with, with our buyers, having a really strong upfront contract, which says, this is what we’re, you know, asking, what are we? What are they talking about today? What is it they want to know about? What do we want to talk about? What do we want to accomplish by the end of this call? And at the very beginning, it’s letting people know that I may say no, and you certainly have my permission to say no. And are we both okay with that? Right. And most salespeople don’t go in telling someone that it would be, it’s okay. For them to say no and getting permission, hey, I might find I can’t help you. And I need to know if it’s okay. That I say no to you, you’re going to be okay telling me No. And here’s what yes would look like and sometimes Yes, is just booking another appointment with all the decision-makers as a small step. That is that safety thing that we talked about, we’re keeping our prospect or buyer really safe. And we’re keeping them okay, whatever it is that they’ve done or not done in the past. We’re not there to criticize them. And we’re there to help them, learn some new skills, put some new tools in their hands. So what they do next is making their system better, smarter, tighter, repeatable and duplicatable. So that’s, that’s the safety part of it.
Jess Dewell: 23:45 And I and you’ve laid it out perfectly. And I think that’s great. And I know, I’m gonna go back to the beginning, because I know if I’m feeling like I have imposter syndrome, or I’m feeling like, I know, I know this stuff. And I know, I know what this customer needs. Can I really show up the way they want? My first goal is to create a connection, which means yes, what did we you know, and this is what you and I did at the very beginning. Unfortunately, we weren’t on air, otherwise, it would have been a great part of this would have been better because the visual part of the bonding and rapport building is really important. Yeah. And taking the time. You know, I plan on the up to the first 15 minutes of every meeting, just being real and being able to ask somebody What’s going on? And if they say not much, that’s great. And if they say, how about you? Well, I launch into a story.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 24:38 Won’t worry the pricing. Yeah.
Jess Dewell: 24:42 But because I think it’s so important to recognize that we, of course, we have a life outside of this one. Of course, we have stuff happening right before this and we are going to stop right after this. But you know what you asked and this is what’s on my heart, which means this is how this is part of how I get to show up to you And so having that heart to go with that, just as like, and so I’m all in, I’m all right here. And here’s what’s exciting. Or, you know, I had a really bumpy morning, and I’m so glad I’m here because I know this is that this is going to be a kind of conversation that will benefit both of us, regardless of the outcome. And I think those are the types of things that are worth taking some time. So we don’t have to chip away at it the whole rest of our meetings.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 25:28 Well, yeah, yes, you’re right. If we don’t get that set-out, first, we’re never going to build trust and credibility. So that’s one of the things that we teach people very early in the process is how don’t do the sales way, the traditional sales way like all other salespeople have been taught, talk about, you know, the picture of the fish on the wall. We want people to be really authentic about how they do the bonding and rapport building part of things and then go into things inquisitive and curious and knowing that whatever you have in your head that you think they might need, might not be it. Right, we’re there to listen, and really do an active inquiry with them. And again, it’s keeping them safe.
Jess Dewell: 26:14 Yes, yes. And I appreciate that a lot. And I also know those extra pressures that get in the way, sometimes slowing down, or recognizing what are typical responses when we’re overly stressed, is important, specifically, because if we’re overly stressed, it doesn’t matter how safe we’re trying to make somebody else, they can’t fully be safe in our crazy.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 26:41 There you go. And that’s where that bat, triangle. Yeah, attitude technique comes in. Because it’s all about getting yourself really calm and centered and really focused on the other. I mean, this, this is a phrase that comes up an awful lot in our training is that we want our process, whatever is in our sales system, it needs to be other-focused. Mm-hmm. And the more we do that, and the more we let go of whatever chatter is in our own head, the more present we can be to them, the safer they feel talking to us, the more that they feel they’ve been listened to. And the more we can uncover what’s really going on in their world, what are they really worried about? Can we help them? Can we not help them? Are we a resource or not? And you’ve come to the end of a meeting, knowing a whole lot more about each other. You’ve asked them a lot of questions. And they’ve asked you a lot of questions, and you have a sense of my therapy something here or not. And you can either close the file and shake hands and hurt friends. Or you might take a next small step together.
Jess Dewell: 27:51 That’s right. And speaking of small steps, small dog has decided I really want right now I tried to hold them silently and quietly and then put it back on your stand.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 28:03 So that’s why I had this oil in my in my office because I have a cat at home, who’s almost 20 years old, a black cat and she’s charming as can be. And she believes that every zoom call is about her. Yes. And then and that I need adult supervision at all times, which is probably true. So she’s in on every call, and everybody knows her.
Jess Dewell: 28:28 See, I love it. And Nick is becoming more well known to he’s you know, he just kind of is. And I’m like, well, we can hear him or I can hold him and he’ll be silent. It’s on like, a hold you and you can just be part of this conversation. Right here. No problem.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 28:42 He’s charming.
Jess Dewell: 28:43 Thank you. And he’s too. That’s a long way from 20 I love your cats. 20.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 28:50 Yeah, well, she will be 20 in June. So I believe that if I get her to 20 I’m officially a cat whisperer. So I’m waiting, you know, my badge will come any day.
Jess Dewell: 29:02 I think that’s fantastic. Oh, you know, I have I have a very close friend. We don’t get to talk as much as I’d like. She lives up in Maine now. And she has, she has had the same cats for a very long time as well. And they’re very close to your cat’s ages. So yeah, and they just got a new kitten year or so ago. So I guess probably around the same time. Probably that kitty is the same time that their new kitty is the same age. Is this still gay? But you know, I’m, I’m glad he’s small. Because if he was any bigger I don’t know how I would stand in whole hog. Yeah, that’s right.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 29:40 Yeah. Once you weigh about five pounds.
Jess Dewell: 29:44 I wish. He’s what he’s about. He’s a little more than that. He’s like somewhere around 11 or 12. Okay, we’ll get in a little bit of exercise arm exercise hold in hand, right. I was like maybe. So I want to come back to the you know, to the attitude. How do we be genuine with our attitude because it’s easy to say I have a positive attitude and only focus on positive things. And even in curiosity, end up accidentally only focusing on the positive and missing the I’m going to go back to the concept of the true connection, what moves the conversation forward? And so, um, you know, attitude has two sides. And I’m curious what your experiences are with that? And do you have somebody who’s always that you’ve ever worked with? It’s like, I know, this is a lot of questions. That’s like, um, I don’t need the positive attitude piece.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 30:36 Well, I think what you’re raising is an excellent question. Just it for us attitude isn’t just taking a positive Pollyanna, you know, it’s all gonna be Skittles and rainbows kind of approach. It’s more taking an attitude that when we have setbacks, and when we have challenges that we have the wherewithal to address those, that we have a belief in our own conviction, or courage, our ability to get resources, if we have a gap in our skills, and part of the attitude has to do with separating our own identity as a person, which is always we’re always worthy, as a human being no matter what our role, and we separate our identity from whatever our role is. And as you know, we have all these roles in our lives, we know we’re mothers, we’re friends, partners, wives, business owners, whatever the roles may be volunteer, coach, whatever the roles are, in our lives, what we believe in, in Sandler is that your identity is, is always what we call a 10, on a scale of one to 10, all your roles could be taken away tomorrow, and you would still be attended to and still be a fabulous, wonderful, deserving worthy human being and all of the values that you have, are still there still matter, and they’re still intact. And so that means if I mess up in my role, and I make a mistake, and I make them all the time, doesn’t make me a bad person. It means tomorrow’s another day. What did I do? Well, what could I do better? And how do I learn? And so I think that’s a little different from just being positive all the time, which as I believe you’re pointing out, probably isn’t gonna work all that well. For us. It’s not that effective.
Jess Dewell: 32:30 No, it’s not. Okay, everybody, you’re listening to the live stream version of the Bold Business Podcast, right here with me just duel. And also with me today is Kathleen Windsor games. Now. We’re thinking about the big F of sales success. And we’re talking about a lot of ifs here, and it wraps up into a big one, the Curiosity piece, the way that we show up. And I and I think that we haven’t even talked about this yet. We haven’t really talked about the listening part. We’ve talked about asking good questions a little. But we really haven’t talked about listening. And I think for the, you know, for the last part of our program here, we ought to talk about that, because it’s something that is often overlooked. And it’s incredibly powerful. What’s your experience with listening, Kathleen?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 33:16 Wow, that’s so very important in such an impactful question, just what, what we know. And what I deeply believe, individually, is that when we show up, oftentimes, in a meeting with a buyer, we may think we know what they need. And one of the most important things about our listening process and the listening tools that we teach, is to just show up very inquisitive and really authentic. So if you take an authentic interest in someone, and you get their permission to ask a lot of questions about what’s going on in their world, you have already set the stage for having a really rich discovery conversation, you’re beginning the first steps of building trust. And that confers a level of credibility. And so as you go through the questioning process, it’s not just checking the boxes. No surprise here isn’t just asking questions and checking the box and saying I asked that question is hearing what they say? And if we don’t really fully understand the answer, being open and honest and saying, you know, I’d like to understand a little bit more about that. Could you tell me more? And if they’ve got a problem, or they have an issue, just saying, Can you give me a recent real-life example of that? paint me a picture, and then asking further follow-up questions. Once we make sure that we’ve understood the first things that they’ve shared, and you know this very well. Then I’ve talked some about the listening process. It’s, it’s mirroring physically mirroring their pace, and their tone and their intonation. If if somebody that we know from the disc profile is very high D, you better not go get into the details with them because you’re going to annoy them. And the reverse is true with somebody who’s very conscientious and cares about the details. Don’t just talk high level to them, try to speak their language. And if we’re listening, and if we’re paying attention, we’ll start the process of understanding their language, their pace, their motivations, and how they want to receive information. Then, once we’ve heard their answers, we better mirror them back and summarize them back and validate. Did I hear you correctly? I thought I heard you say A and, and B. And you put a lot of emphasis on a? And am I getting that? Right? Where which of these is more significant? Which one’s your priority?
Jess Dewell: 36:04 Oh, okay, this is the difference. And I think with what we do, because I’m laughing, I don’t know if it’s because I’m partly high D. Or if it’s because I’m like, at some point, I’m going to just tell you what I see. Okay, good. And I’ll be like, and I knew may not be ready for it. And I know, and I know that that forwardness. It’s not it’s well, it can be off-putting, I think, but I also think that it just takes a little bit to get used to, because I’m like, Look, your time is money. And my time is money. And if, if we’re at, I’m listening to you, and I’m like this is good. And if we have this conversation twice, I’m gonna call it. Let’s, let’s jump here. Not only do I see that this is more important because you’re talking about it, but you’re not going to commit. How come? I go straight in? And probably sometimes probably, you know, it might not be the time that I’m mostly tactful. I’ll be honest, but I’m not always tactful. Because I’m like, Oh, well, look, I can help you. So instead of in, how about if I just tell you and have a good time? Right. Yeah. And, and that’s not always a good thing. Right, Kathleen? myself. And point is a style. Get it does have its downsides. So as long as whatever we’re approaching, and I’m not, I’m not. I appreciate your perspective. And do I strive for that? laughing because I’m like, I don’t know how much I can actually do that all the time.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 37:40 That sounds like you’re fairly Hardy, which is fine. A lot of my clients I work with are high D. And the big thing I think to get to is asking just enough questions of people and having that trust level, of course, to ask those questions. But getting to the point where this where someone can say to you that I see the problem as x, and it’s been going on, you know, problem X has been going on in my business for a whole year. And it’s it’s, you know, making this up here, right, but it’s cost me $250,000. Last, you know, last year, right? And not fixing it is not an option. So guess what, that’s not me telling them. And one of the most important things about Sandler that we learn is that people don’t argue with their own data. And by having a good questioning process and a system for asking questions. It’s just getting them to state the truth that’s in their world, we’re not looking for a problem that doesn’t exist or trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist. We just care about finding out what’s real in their world, and getting them comfortable enough to state it’s x, it’s been going on this long, it’s cost me this much money, I gotta fix it. And if those things don’t exist, that’s okay, too. But once they’ve said it, and we’ve heard it, that is the beauty of real active listening.
Jess Dewell: 39:03 The outcome, however, we get there and following your path actually, is a nice way to build trust along the way. And I recognize when, when I’m in a situation and I’m like, Oh, I thought we were farther along the path in this, I jumped ahead and I forgot to bring him with me. And I’m saying that out loud. Because one, I can be honest about that and to her, when we can reflect and know that within ourselves and actually say it maybe not on air to everybody. But when we can say we go Oh, how’s it working for us and is now the time to change that.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 39:39 There you go. When it’s working for you.
Jess Dewell: 39:43 Say that again.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 39:45 If it’s working, that’s great. And if it’s not, okay, right, then those are two separate conversations to hold if it’s working, good for you. And that’s awesome. And I’m very comfortable with someone Saying or me saying, hey, sounds like we’re, we’re just not a good fit, or maybe the problem that the person is having. Not important enough, not significant enough to put any money, or time or mental resources into this. All of those are precious. And I think it’s important for people to have the right priorities. And if what we’re doing doesn’t fit in somebody’s world and doesn’t match their priorities, that’s okay.
Jess Dewell: 40:25 But you know, what, do we get credibility when we’re the ones to say it?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 40:29 We really do. We really do. And that is, again, I’ll go back to that, that bat the behavior attitude technique. If you have some confidence in yourself hearing No, it’s not the end of the world at all. Sometimes it’s good because now we’ve both cleared our calendars to do something else. So we’re not going to pursue something together that where I’m wasting your time, or are I’m wasting my time, right?
Jess Dewell: 40:54 That’s right because that’s the least that that is the outcome that nobody wants. Why get together and waste each other’s time out of a sense of duty or obligation or commitment. Somewhere along the lines, somebody let us somebody was led astray to make that happen. And the other person or people involved are just as culpable because they’re your went along with that.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 41:15 Dang it.
Jess Dewell: 41:16 Right. You’re comfortable.
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 41:17 That’s right.
Jess Dewell: 41:19 That’s right. And so are that ownership and that awareness. And to your point, the bat that you’re right, you’ve been referencing, and the beginnings of this system that you’ve outlined along the way, are incredibly important. And, you know, I what I love about how you’re responding to me is you’re like, Oh, yeah, there is a some adaptability here. And this is just how I present it. And I’m like, of course, that’s a Kathleen. And that’s one of the reasons I like you so much. Because people see that, right, there’s so many ways to get to the end goal. And so in my case, and I’ll just keep off finish this concept up is that it does work for me. However, there are times when it does not, and it is up to me to know the difference because I have accepted that personal responsibility. There you go, best advisor that I can and the best listener that I can, and the best solution finder that I can be. And if and so that’s a place that I get to improve because there are times I need to just pause and wait and let other people catch up to me, or Yes. And, and the other way around. Every once in a while I meet somebody who’s ahead of me, and I’m like, slow. But I know that you’re working to catch up person, right? And so it’s, it’s that awareness of how do we want to show up? How are we willing to show up? And are we do? Are we able and ready to do the work to be able to get?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 42:43 That’s right. And I think the keyword that I heard you say is just the adaptability part. And I believe that’s a lifelong journey. I am certified in using the disc profile. And it’s a tool that I really love. And what I’ve often told my clients is, once we go through this and you understand yourself and you start understanding why some of the people around you show up the way they do and why the communication hasn’t exactly gone, right. And you feel like maybe you’re at odds, it’s like, now you’ll have the secret decoder ring. And you’ll know the secret handshake. And they they laugh at that. But then on the other side, they go oh my god, it is like having a secret decoder ring. I do know the secret handshake now. And it’s working better. Yes. It’s adaptability, awareness and adaptability.
Jess Dewell: 43:33 All right, and so how would you sum up our conversation today?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 43:37 Well, we’ve covered a lot. And I must say you’re, you’re really good at bringing out these great topics and leading this dialogue in a great, in a great way. So I’ve really enjoyed this. But I think the takeaways to me that I would want people to come away with is one, focus on controlling what you can control. That’s your own behavior, your own attitude, and your own techniques, whatever that may be in the world where if you’re in sales, or you’re in an influencing role, those are things you can control every day and you can continue the lifelong journey of getting better at that. The other is, if you’re in sales, have a sales system, put something in place that is repeatable and duplicatable, that works, that improves your ability to qualify and find the best buyers for what’s in your world and how to take them through that process more effectively. You know, I guess bottom line you do that you will sell more, you will sell more easily. And I guess the final thing is I do offer a free download on that if people are interested, just how to have a selling system and why you should have a selling system.
Jess Dewell: 44:58 Thank you for summing that up. I would have said similar things. And I want to know, let’s see. Isn’t that great? See, all right, everybody this is this is magic in the making two very different personalities are showing up having a fantastic conversation. And we would have summed it up the same way. So I know which means, which means we’ve got what it takes. Okay, I think I saw the sparkle in your eye get a little bit brighter. Do you want to go get into a little bit more mischief after this?
Kathleen Winsor-Games: 45:28 Yes, I, I will. mischief is a part of of my modus operandi. So there you go.
Jess Dewell: 45:35 Excellent. Your cat, my dog in us? I can’t wait. We secret’s out. That is so so great. All right. Thanks for being with us on this live stream of the Bold Business Podcast. Don’t forget Red Direction. COMM is where you can subscribe to our newsletter, you can subscribe to the listening platform of your choice to get these totally and completely delivered directly to you. And it’s most important that you add your experiences your tips, your learnings to this conversation. You see, while we live streamed on LinkedIn, and YouTube, we are going to put this on a few other platforms as well, in addition to our podcast feed, so what I want you to know is that the only way we get better is by talking about it. The only way we get better is by sharing our learnings. The only way we get better is by asking questions. And seeking not only self-reflection, but the experience of others because I’m all about learning by experience, but we don’t have to learn it all by our own experience. Let’s learn from each other’s experiences as well. So if you found value in this, make sure to give us a rating Make sure to follow Kathleen Make sure to stay in touch with me and the Bold Business Podcast. Thanks so much, everybody. Until next time.
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