UNCHARTED: The Real Power of Knowing What You Can Control and Influence

Starting the conversation:

Are you underestimating what you actually control? Discover why shifting focus from uncontrollable obstacles to what you can influence changes everything for business growth. Apollo Emeka, Apollo Strategy Group, shares that it is BOLD to become the best at the basics to feel fulfilled as you take action on your big decisions.

“Control the controlables” is more than a trope. Not only is it a way to become the best at what you do, it is also THE way to find your best next step — because when we know how our resources can be applied to a situation, it uncovers more that we can actually control.

In this episode, you will hear the power of acknowledging what you don’t want so that you can get rid of pointless work; when things are out of your control move to how you might influence the situation; and how to reframe and lean in to failures to become even better at the basics to get where you want to go. Jess Dewell talks with Apollo Emeka, Apollo Strategy Group, about imbuing fulfillment into your big decision.

Host: Jess Dewell

Guest: Apollo Emeka

What You Will Hear:

08:25 The Fulfillment Gap: Knowing What You Really Want

• There is a difference between what you want and what you are willing to do to get it.
• Fulfillment doesn’t always align with wants and desires.
• Ranking goals by fulfillment level reveals that much striving is for things only slightly above neutral.

15:55 The Big Decision Framework: Broccoli All the Way Down

• Start with a clear, fulfilling big decision about what you want in health, relationships, impact, and wealth.
• Break down the big decision into supporting decisions — like a fractal broccoli model.
• Does it serve your big decision? Yes: do it. No: don’t do it.

18:05 ‘Can’, ‘Should’, ‘Could’ vs. Want and Need

• Using “can,” “should,” and “could” leads to sprawling commitments and distraction.
• Filter actions with: Do I want to do it? Do I need to do it?
• Don’t let others’ standards push you into unwanted activities — clarity on this helps you stick to your path.

24:25 Control and Influence in Uncertainty

• Advice from Special Forces: identify what you can control, and influence everything else.
• Many things previously thought out of your control may actually be influenced more than you believe.
• Don’t assume constraints are immovable—look for influence and adaptability in every situation.

26:15 Decisions vs. Goals: Why Language Matters

• Decisions create cognitive dissonance that the brain wants to resolve, while goals are treated like side quests.
• Decisions lead to real commitment and operationalization, not just wishful thinking.
• Teams and individuals take decisions more seriously than “goals.”

27:10 Distraction vs. Righteous Activity: Serving Your Decision or Your Monsters

• Productive work aligns with your big, fulfilling decision; high-performance distractions serve your decision monsters.
• Chasing something for external validation or because you “should” is typically a distraction — even if it looks like hard work.
• Ask yourself: Is this activity a righteous choice for my goals, or am I just appeasing fears and assumptions?

49:00 It is BOLD to tell a high-growth founder that their path to their next revenue level isn’t through innovation, but through becoming “boring” and mastering the basics.

Resources

• Veterans Aren’t Afraid of Diversity
• How to Leverage Your Unique Experiences to Create Successful Company Cultures
• Connect with Apollo Emeka
• A More Beautiful Question Book
• Good to Great Book
• Strength to Strength Book

Transcript

Jess Dewell 00:00
It’s important to acknowledge what you don’t want because that gets rid of the pointless work.

Apollo Emeka 00:05
Because if you can find that thing, then everything else becomes a lot more clear. It’s not like the end of hard work for you, but it’s just the end of pointless work.

Announcer 00:19
Every leader needs a trusted partner for the moments that matter. This bold business podcast conversation is that partnership. Your go-to resource designed to break the inertia and refresh your perspective so you can start making moves.

Here is your host, an insightful truth teller who serves as the catalyst for getting the right work done and who asks the questions that truly matter, Jess Dewell.

Jess Dewell 00:46
Today on the bold business podcast, you’re going to hear me talk with Dr. Apollo Imeka. He’s known as the big decisions guy. He has a fascinating life.

It’s a very unique path. And he has achieved the goals that were most important to him, the ones he was willing to commit to. And through the experiences he has had from not going to school very much, from serving as an FBI intelligence analyst and US special forces green beret, he is now working with entrepreneurs to grow and scale according to their highest and best dreams.

And he actually talks to us about that and his three-step process in today’s conversation. Now, there are three things I’m pulling out ahead of time so that you will hear while we’re having our conversation. And the first is it’s important to acknowledge what you don’t want because that gets rid of the pointless work.

The second thing is just because something is out of our control doesn’t mean it is out of our influence. And the third one, when we can reframe and learn from our failures and mistakes, it’s because we recognize what the basics are and we’ve chosen to master them to grow. I’m excited to be talking with Dr. Apollo today and let’s get to our conversation. Do you consider yourself an accidental entrepreneur?

Apollo Emeka 02:08
No.

Jess Dewell 02:09
I didn’t think so, but let’s just start right there. So you’re not, but do you work with accidental entrepreneurs?

Apollo Emeka 02:14
How would you define an accidental entrepreneur?

Jess Dewell 02:17
I was guided to this path and listened. It was not my choice. I was going to be a scientist in a lab, Apollo.

Apollo Emeka 02:25
Okay. What kind of scientist? What kind of lab?

Jess Dewell 02:28
Biochemistry solving rare children’s diseases. Okay. Yeah.

And making some progress on bringing peace and change to these people whose whole lives had been upended. By the time I was two years into college, it was a 180 degree, left college and moved across the country and was part of a startup. And that was the end of that.

So accidental. Yes. Tap on the shoulder.

Yes. Do I feel like I had a hundred percent choice in listening and doing it? Yes.

And so maybe accidental there. But I think sometimes accidental is I had a hobby that got real big or I found myself without a job and had to do something with that. Does anything come to mind for you?

Apollo Emeka 03:19
One of my core values is intention and I’m the big decisions guy. So I help people make big decisions. So in situations like that, I think that our world, our education, and most of the time, our parents, our peers do not encourage us to become entrepreneurs.

Jess Dewell 03:40
I agree with that.

Apollo Emeka 03:42
And most of the time, especially if you’re going to be an entrepreneur for the long run, it’s got to be a conscious choice. Now you might love baking pies and someone says, oh my gosh, I would love for you to cater my event. And you might be an accidental entrepreneur for a weekend, but you have to put some serious intention behind it and make a big decision to really become an entrepreneur and invest in yourself and have a professional commitment in that way.

That I think that it’s, you can maybe start by accident, but even if you’re starting by accident, if you’re starting by accident, if somebody asking you to cater an event after you baked a bunch of pies, gets you to do it, it’s probably just pulling on a thread that was already there. And that if our society was different, if our education system was different, if being an entrepreneur, especially 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, wasn’t viewed as this alternate, crazy, risky path, then I think a lot, you’d see a lot more entrepreneurs. So that accidental thing, I think is just, oh wait, I can actually get paid to make pies?

Oh, wait, I can actually get paid to do this thing. That’s a passion of mine or that I find really interesting. So I don’t know that for in my eyes, it’s not as much an accident as it is just an awakening to the idea that it’s even a possibility for you.

Jess Dewell 05:10
Okay. So I want to talk about that a minute, because you’re talking about education and you’re talking about society. And now I’m thinking about my lineage.

I’m thinking about who came before me. And now I’m curious about you too. If we go back to my parents, both of my parents were raised, get jobs, provide for your family.

Neither one of my parents went to college. Now, if you look at my grandparents, all of my grandparents and my grandparent in loves went to college. And let me see, one went to the middle.

Actually, that’s not true. Three of my four on my side went to college. And on the other side, I think all of them went.

And so of the ones that went to college, I’m looking at them. Most were entrepreneurs. My grandpa was the only one.

He was an engineer and he worked for a company. My other grandpa was in the military. My grandma’s were teachers and they did accounting.

And then I’m looking at my husband’s family. And on their side, one was a plumber and his dad was Ryan’s great grandpa owned a restaurant, right? And so there’s entrepreneurship all the way through.

And so it’s interesting to see maybe we swung the other way for some reason.

Apollo Emeka 06:22
Yeah, it is interesting for me. Neither of my grandparents on my mom’s side went to college. My mom went to college and that’s where she actually met my dad.

My dad was in the Air Force at the time and he was stationed in Corvallis. My dad is a black man from the South, born in Arkansas, raised in Texas. And my mom was white, born and raised in Central Oregon and ended up going to college at OSU.

And my dad went to Fisk, which is a historically black college. At the time, it wasn’t historically black. It was just black.

He finished at University of Kansas and then went into the Air Force and was stationed in Corvallis where he met my mom. Oh, hey, there we go.

Jess Dewell 07:05
Both of my grandpa and love went to KU.

Apollo Emeka 07:09
Oh, wow.

Jess Dewell 07:10
Yeah, he’s 97.

Apollo Emeka 07:13
Oh, OK.

Jess Dewell 07:14
Yeah, no, I was going to say we have different generations, but all at KU.

Apollo Emeka 07:18
Not that far off, though. My dad is turning 85 next in April. But yeah, so my but both of my parents were entrepreneurs at different points in their lives.

Yeah. And but I not in a way that I was ever like. This is what I need to do with my life, right, because yeah, not it was not.

Yeah, they weren’t. It just was not playing out in ways that I would want to be an entrepreneur. Yeah, I’ll say that.

Jess Dewell 07:51
That’s interesting because you’ve come back around to it. So is it because it is in your genes somehow? Is it because you were guided there like I was?

Is it and I’m going to claim that it could be something else. But for our conversation, I’m just going to claim I listened to the nudges. And OK, there you go.

By the way, I think that is intentional. Right. If we’re willing to, yeah, there is some intention in that.

What am I missing? Got it. Let’s go take action that way.

How do you think? What do you think about that? Is that part of your process?

Is that something that you also do or claim or practice in some way?

Apollo Emeka 08:25
I had a really massive epiphany last year. I’ve been doing a lot of work over the last nine years, helping leaders and teams grand scale as a coach and facilitator. There’s so much professional development and personal development stuff out there about optimizing your habits and your mindset and really getting better at doing stuff, getting more disciplined at doing stuff, getting more efficient at doing stuff.

I had this epiphany last year that something we don’t think a lot about that leaders don’t think a lot about is what it is that they actually want. I noticed that there is a gap between what most people think they want and what they actually want. The way that I found this out is I started asking people to come into these sessions with me with a list of their goals across personal.

And then I would ask them to rate these goals on a fulfillment scale. So we have, I want to run a marathon. I want to make $300,000 next year.

I want to go on three vacations with my family next year. Whatever, all of these goals. And a lot of times people would come in with 10 to 20.

I’d say, okay, we’re going to go down the list and we’re just going to say scale of one to 10, how fulfilling are these goals to you? If you imagine accomplishing them. And so a one on this scale is you would feel regret, resent and drain.

So if you imagine accomplishing this thing, you’d feel regret, resent and drain. 10 is you would feel energized, excited and fulfilled. If you imagine accomplishing this thing.

And my seven-year-old would be super happy to know that a lot of the answers were a six or a seven. Six, seven. So like a lot of people, it averaged out to a 6.5. And so people are coming in and this is, I started doing these sessions when I figured this out. And people were crying once they realized that, oh my gosh, the thing that I am striving towards is actually, if I imagine accomplishing it is one or two points above neutral for me. And some people were finding that running a marathon is a three for me. Or two, even because I’m going to have to spend all this time.

I’ve had injuries before. I’m nervous about re-injuring myself. And so it’s like when they actually imagine doing the thing, they’re like, oh, I actually don’t want this.

And so then what I would do is I would take the highest scoring goals that they have. So it’s okay. You want to make $300,000 next year.

That is a nine for you. Let’s imagine that we hopped on Zoom a year from now and you had made $300,000. And I asked you how it felt and you were like, oh, it’s a two.

I’m full of regret and resent. What are the reasons that might be? And so then they start saying, if I had to compromise my character to make $300,000.

If I had to work 60 or 80 hour weeks to do it. If I didn’t neglect my family, if I had to. And so then we start getting at the things that people really want.

And once you identify what it is that you really want, the habits become easier because you’re going after a thing that you don’t have to twist your arm to make it happen. The path becomes a lot more clear because it’s, oh, it is this, not that. It is $300,000 without working with jerk clients, without working more than 40 hours a week, without this, without that.

And so once you start to add all these criteria and create this 10 out of 10 fulfillment scenario. Then the path even starts to light up and you can figure out exactly what’s a hell yes on your path and what’s a hell no on your path. That’s how I think about things is how do you get to that 10 out of 10 in fulfillment?

Because if you can find that thing, then everything else becomes a lot more clear. And it’s not like you’re, it’s the end of hard work for you, but it’s just the end of pointless work. Because you’re like, at least this thing that I’m struggling through and striving towards is something that I really, truly, deeply want.

And not something that I feel like I’m supposed to want because my parents think I should do this thing. Or because my spouse or because my colleagues think I should do it.

Announcer 13:26
Feeling stuck? Like what got you here won’t get you there. The pressure to grow is on, yet the path isn’t clear yet. You don’t have to walk that path alone. This is the Bold Business Podcast. Like and subscribe wherever you listen. Your host, Jess Dewell, is the strategic partner you’ve been looking for. Asking the questions that truly matter. It’s time to break the inertia and get the perspective you need to make your next move.

Jess Dewell 13:34
You are listening to the Bold Business Podcast. This is Jess Dewell, your host. And today you are listening to my conversation with Dr. Apollo Emeka. So we’re talking a lot about stories. We’re talking a lot about things that maybe we think of ourselves, or we’ve accepted from other people, or we assume to be the right path because it’s the path that we were prepared for. And I love, Apollo, I love to turn those things right on their heads.

So I’m listening to you and I’m thinking, oh look, we’re talking about communication. Communication is a skill that we do every day. And I’m going to go back to your value of intention.

One of my values is, my personal values, is honesty. And so if we take those values and we show up here with this concept of communication, now I’m like, this is, I don’t like the word soft skill anymore because I don’t think soft skills are right. I think these are the human skills that allow us to connect, to be honest and intentional and honest, to move through the world toward this fulfillment that you’ve just described.

And maybe every single listener and watcher ought to take 10 minutes this week. That might be my challenge of the episode. Can you take 10 minutes this week?

And can you start doing this process that Apollo laid out? So you can see, and can you be intentional about it? And can you be honest with yourself about it? And if not, you know who to call, right?

Apollo Emeka 14:58
I love it. And you put on your YouTube channel, there’s a video that says, sometimes doing all the planning out every single step can get exhausting and paralyzing. And so what’s the next step? How do you take that next step? And so for me, every single one of my clients, the first thing that we do is we create their big decision. And that big decision covers what they want to accomplish in four different domains, health, relationships, impact, and wealth.

And so that’s the first thing. And so we create this big decision that sounds like a toddler’s run on sentence. And then when you’re starting to think about, okay, what do I do next? What am I going to do that is going to serve this? Now, I work with leaders and teams to, I call it like broccoli it all the way down, because if broccoli is a fractal, if you pull off a stock of broccoli from a head of broccoli, it looks just like the thing you pulled it off of, right? And so we will create the big decision.

And then we break it down and we say, okay, what are the decisions we need to make to support this? What are the decisions we need to make to support those? But even if you don’t do all that, if the only thing that you do is create this beautiful toddler’s run on sentence of what you want to achieve in those four domains, then you can just take any potential option or activity and you can say, all right, does this thing that’s in front of me fill the buckets in my big decision?

If it does, yeah, do it. If it does not, do not do it. Even if it sounds like you should do it, it should by someone else’s standards.

So just leave it alone. So that’s the very first step is creating that big decision of saying where, what is really going to be a 10 out of 10 for me? What’s going to light me up?

What’s going to feed my soul? And then evaluating all of your activities against that.

Jess Dewell 16:48
So I hear that the approach that you are taking is, what do we have? Can we acknowledge it? Can we claim it?

Because in those cans, can I, is where the real growth opportunity is and the real momentum and progress. That’s where it will occur. And I heard you say it’s not easy.

And this concept of communication as a skill of humans, how do we connect? Because as soon as we can connect with somebody else, we can see more than ourselves. And I think that’s a big part because even though all of this amazing work that we have, and that is being done that you’ve described, we still have to relate to others.

We’re going to rely on others. We’re going to ask for help. We’re in a world where if I look at my grandparents and my great grandparents, we were talking about our lineage earlier.

They did everything in neighborhoods and communities and groups that they were a part of. And they leaned in on those people. And I actually think that there’s something about communication where there’s an element of that to bring back to really create that momentum, to understand what’s my identity shift of all of the shoulds you were just talking about to this is who I really am.

This is what I really want. Here is really where I’m going.

Apollo Emeka 18:07
Most people will say, oh, can’t’s a bad word. I believe that can is also a bad word. Should and could are all words that whenever my clients use can or should or could, I have a little buzzer that I’m just like, hold on, wait a minute.

Because there’s only two reasons to do something. And can, should, and could aren’t in there. It’s do you want to do it or do you need to do it?

Do you want to do it or do you need to do it? Who cares if you can? Who cares if you should?

What does that even mean? Who cares? Could is like even worse than can and should because it’s can but with conditions.

I can do this, but not yet until I do this other thing and then I could do it. So for me, it’s about identifying, do you want, is this a thing you want to do? If you don’t want to, okay, do you need to do it?

And if it’s neither of those things, then don’t do it. And we fill our lives with so much of can, should, and could. And those things just create these sprawling commitments, sprawling paths, sprawling work to unfulfilling and poorly defined destinations.

So I do not like the word can, especially when you’re talking about your big decision. Because if you want to be an entrepreneur who can travel all the time, an entrepreneur that operates from all over the world, people introduce can too early. They introduce the feasibility too early.

Just sit with it for a second.

Jess Dewell 19:46
I’m going to point this out because I’m listening to you and I’m like, oh, this is just not how I work. This is not my workflow. And I appreciate there are a lot of people out there that are.

And so embodying this for a minute and trying it on.

Apollo Emeka 19:57
Yeah.

Jess Dewell 19:57
And in my head, right before you said it, I was like, oh, it’s not that they can or can’t. It’s that it’s usually too early. And what did you just say?

You just said they introduce it too early. And so I’m a big picture to the little picture. And it sounds like you’re the clear picture to the big picture.

And you’re in it’s through motion and action that you’re getting to that big picture. Is that a fair thing to say?

Apollo Emeka 20:21
I think I’m big picture to little picture as well.

Jess Dewell 20:25
Because I hear you saying here because you’re getting to that one big decision. And that’s where I think we overlap. And you’re like, cool, you’ve got your big.

And I feel like that’s it’s almost like the middle way. We both work from the big decisions. And you’re saying, OK, so here we’re going to get really clear on what this is.

So we can get really clear on what these are. So our broccoli, I really like that. And so I’m going to just call it the broccoli.

The rest of the show comes into play. And I’m thinking I’m more like the night sky. There are so many stars and galaxies out there that I’m not sure what we’re going to need yet.

But we’re working from this big decision that’s very clear. So what else might help make that? So it is a different path, even though we’re both starting from that clear big decision.

Because you’re right. I don’t want to say that you’re not working from the big decision because you are. And I’m thinking, but I’m actually working from context, which is where can comes in a little bit more.

Even when we agreed that it was too early.

Apollo Emeka 21:18
Who cares what you can do? If you can do a thing, but the thing you can do is not going to lead you where you want to go. It’s not a good thing to do, even though you can.

If you want to go this place and there’s something that you currently, quote unquote, can’t do, then you need to. Who cares if you can’t do it because you want to go this place? So you’re going to have to figure out some kind of way to turn that can’t into a can.

Right. And the environment can do that. Look at interest rates.

Look at tariffs. Look at whatever. So a lot of things that were cans a year ago are cans today.

And a lot of things that were cans a year ago are cans today. That’s why I just think that people go to can way too early. Hey, you want this thing.

Let’s sit with that for a second. Allow yourself to want what you actually want. And then the second step in my process, which is just three steps, is now we say, OK, what is absolutely required in order to get there?

So for you to be a traveling digital nomad or whatever. OK, if that’s the thing that you truly want, that’s your 10 out of 10 is waking up in a different country every couple of weeks doing your thing. What is absolutely required in order to get there?

And this is where we can start thinking about what’s feasible or not. But even still, I don’t think of it as can or can’t. It’s what are you willing to do?

If you look at the requirements and you’re like too much money, too much time, too much risk. It’s not that you can’t do it. Yeah.

It’s that you don’t want to. And that’s where, again, it’s need or want. So now you’re saying, hey, OK, these are the things that I must do if I want to be a digital nomad.

I got to deal with visas and passports and I got to be willing to sleep in one bedrooms. And OK, if those are all things that are required for it and I don’t want to do those things, then OK, you’re not willing to pay the price in order to get this thing. So now you have to look at the thing and say, do I actually want that?

Do I really want to be a digital nomad and have this negotiation with your heart and say, OK, and if your heart wins and it’s like, yes, damn it, you actually do want this thing. OK, then now your head has to figure out how to make the visa thing work, how to make the accommodation thing work.

Jess Dewell 23:26
And we’re talking about what is and isn’t in our control. That’s actually the second step that you’re just talking about is really what it boils down to, right? What is and isn’t in our control?

What do we influence and what are we unable to influence? And are we willing?

Apollo Emeka 23:41
Part of my background is in U.S. Army Special Forces.

Jess Dewell 23:44
Yeah.

Apollo Emeka 23:44
And there is when you’re going through what we call the Q course, the Special Forces Qualification course, when you’re going through the Q course, there’s this thing on the front end of it that’s like a week or two. I can’t remember orientation. It was one of the most impactful things.

It was a before and after moment in my life really was in this orientation and this one session we’re sitting in this big auditorium. And they had these different Green Berets coming in from different kind of eras, giving us their perspective and their advice on the road ahead. And one of the guys said, can we use colorful language?

Is it while I get beeped? Should I beep myself?

Jess Dewell 24:22
I was going to say beep yourself.

Apollo Emeka 24:23
Okay, okay. This guy comes in and he’s got like maybe eight slides and they’re just like blank white slides with a black letter sentence on them. They’re not fancy slides at all.

And he had these sayings. And one of the sayings was control all the controllables and influence the ish out of everything else. And I was like, wow.

And so he was talking about this in the context of being in very dangerous situations with high degrees of uncertainty. And he’s talking about controlling all the controllables and influencing the ish out of everything else. When I started to embody that, not only in the military context, but across my life, it made me realize that.

So I would say, okay, is this a thing I can control or is it a thing I need to influence? I’m going to say, all right, I need to influence this thing. Whereas before I’d have been like, oh, it’s out of my control.

Therefore, let me not think about it. But now I’m like, oh, it’s out of my control. I have another option.

I can use influence. So let me see influence. And what I started to discover is that things that I was previously clocking is out of control, but then started saying out of my control, then started saying, okay, how do I influence this thing?

I started to realize that the things that I was trying to influence were actually within my control or my influence was so effective that it might as well have been within my control. And so I think that, yes, so much of this comes down to control and what you can control and what you think you can control. And I think that most people underestimate their ability to control the circumstances surrounding their lives.

Jess Dewell 26:11
I’m in agreement with you. What I see in the executive teams that I work with. So sometimes there are people who are companies promote from within.

And yes, there’s definitely a transitory piece to that too. Regardless of you, if you’re working up through the ranks and part of a program within a company or you have achieved all of these different things, it comes from stepping into situations that are messy and figuring them out. And that’s actually what you’re talking about, which by the way is a hundred percent running and owning a business, scaling a business, getting through the valley of death, getting to that first acquisition, staying on or not when you’ve got that first influx of income or investment, whatever that is.

And how do you get to the next? Every single piece of the path for running and scaling a business is all about, I don’t know what I’m doing here in an essence. So I’m hearing you say, so how do I influence it to find what’s in your control to navigate the way through?

Apollo Emeka 27:13
Well, if you’re doing something that’s serving one of those decision monsters, it’s a distraction. If you’re doing something that’s serving your big decision, that’s a 10 out of 10. It’s on point.

It’s righteous. It’s a righteous activity. So if you’re doing something, because if you’re going after the car or the shoes or the house or the title, because of what you think people are going to say about you, that’s a distraction.

And it’s usually a costly distraction. It usually costs you a whole bunch of time, money, energy, doing things that you don’t want to do to get a place that you don’t want to go. And so that’s why, again, it’s so important to ask that question.

If I accomplish this thing, or if we accomplish this thing, where are we going to be on that one to 10 scale? And it’s really powerful with teams when if you can get a team to look at a decision and say, this is a 10 out of 10 for me. And everybody’s saying that.

It’s so powerful. And it becomes so much easier to figure out, again, what’s righteous activity? What is worth committing resources, energy, attention to?

And what is just a distraction? What are the things that we’re doing just because we think we should? Because most companies in this stage do such and such.

Therefore, we should, too. We want to get at, OK, what’s going to be truly fulfilling? Do you want to do it?

Do you need to do it?

Jess Dewell 28:34
So give me an example from your journey.

Apollo Emeka 28:37
I did not go to a lot of school growing up. The past fourth grade, I probably went to about 30 percent of school because my parents put a lot of trust in me as a child. It’s funny because my dad still has some letters that he wrote to the school when they were going to pull me out and homeschool me, even though I did not get homeschooling.

And it was just like Apollo does not like that. He has to raise his hand when he wants to go to the bathroom and he just feels he should be able to relieve himself freely. Like it was literally stuff like that.

So my parents were they put a lot of my own. We talked about natural consequences earlier. I got to experience a lot of natural consequences growing up because they just like, all right, that’s what you want to do.

OK, go for it. So I didn’t. But as a result, I had a lot of understanding of cause and effect.

When I do, this thing happens. When I leave school too long, I realize I can’t read. So I got a lot of that.

But I had these dreams of either being on Saturday Night Live or being in the FBI because I loved X-Files and I loved Saturday Night Live. So I was like, I looked at the TV and I was like, these are how I’m going to these are my career choices right here. And so those were my tens, either one of those.

If you had asked me when I was between the ages of 13 and 25, I’d be like, yeah, my 10 out of 10 is the FBI or Saturday Night Live. And so I I didn’t have the discipline or the follow through or the pedigree or any of that. And by the time I was 17, my mom got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer when I was just turned 17 and died four months later.

So I was really in a tailspin. It was clear I was not going to graduate from high school. And so I just my dad signed for me to go into the military at 17.

And that was the whole reason why I did that is because I wanted to get into the FBI. So I made the decision when I was 17. I remember the week that I dropped out of high school, I got an FBI recruiter on the phone, which was just like the coolest thing ever.

I remember just even calling the FBI in Seattle and being like, I want to talk to your recruiter please. And when they answer the phone, they’re like, FBI. And I’m like, this is the thing.

And I remember telling my cousins and my family and everything like I’m going to be in the FBI or I’m going to be on Saturday Night Live. And people laughed at me. People laughed.

But I didn’t care. I didn’t care about the social monster because I was like, I’m not serving you. I don’t care what you think I can do.

I don’t care what you believe that I am worthy of. I don’t care if you believe what’s possible. It’s a thing that I want.

So what is required? And so I talked to that recruiter about what was required to be in the FBI. And she told me and I was like, she was like, just finish high school.

And I was like, OK, I’m not going to tell you that I just dropped out of high school officially. And she’s like, go to a really good college. I’m like, no, really good college will take me get really good grades.

I’ve never gotten really good grades. He laid all this out. But again, I didn’t hearing this stuff didn’t make me think, oh, maybe the FBI is not for me.

Hearing this stuff didn’t make me think, oh, I probably should keep it to myself that I want to join the FBI. The week after that, after I talked to the FBI recruiter, I saw a military recruiter and I told him I want to go in the FBI. I just dropped out of high school.

And he was like, oh, if you can get into military intelligence, that’ll give you a leg up to get in the FBI. I’m like, cool. How do I do that?

So that was and that’s what I ended up doing. And by the time I was 25, I was in the FBI.

Jess Dewell 32:07
This is an amazing story, because I think as you were talking, I had four or five of these clear, specific moments show up in my world that were the same. And and looking back. It’s surprising I didn’t listen to one of the monsters that showed up.

I did anyway. So I’m actually there’s challenge number two. OK, let me just tell you right now, Apollo, for our listeners and watchers, I usually don’t get a very rarely get one challenge to say, hey, this would be something to do for yourself from this conversation.

Now you’re getting a second one. And that is look back, re-listen to what Apollo was just sharing in the minutes up to his story, because I bet you there are things in your past you just listened and did and you didn’t take the first answer and you found the way.

Apollo Emeka 32:55
Exactly.

Jess Dewell 32:56
Use that for right now to claim what you are and what you have right now so you can keep asking the question and finding the way to your next. Can I share my story with you? I’ll give you a short version, please.

I actually don’t know if I’ve ever shared this on the podcast. I was in college to become a biochemist. I was working full time to pay for my way through college because I had loans, but I really didn’t want to graduate with loans.

So I worked to pay off my loans as I went. Turns out I was like I ended up in a situation where I got to drop out of college and move for a startup. And it was a no brainer.

But when I told my mom, she drove across the state of Kansas to me the next day to have lunch. Here came my feasibility monster. Here came my worthiness monster.

Here came definitely the social monster came with friends. And she sat me down at lunch and she laid it on. And I don’t remember the conversation.

I remember going, all I have to do is let her say her piece because my decision is made.

Apollo Emeka 33:58
Boom.

Jess Dewell 33:58
And then she goes, so what are you going to do if it doesn’t work? And I said, that would be the worst-case scenario. And I’m expecting to be able to come home.

And she goes, yeah. I said, so there you go. I’m going to go.

If it doesn’t work, I’ll come home. And I’m saying to myself, not only is this going to work, I’m never coming home. I still go home.

I still see my family. So that was one of those moments in my path where I’m listening to you. I’m like, I had no idea it was that powerful, but it still stuck with me. So yours sticks with you.

Apollo Emeka 34:25
And what I’ve found is that a lot of people have these moments where they’ve thrown the gauntlet down and in their minds, they failed and it wrecked them.

Jess Dewell 34:37
Yes.

Apollo Emeka 34:38
And I think I was talking to a client and he was talking about how many years ago he worked to turn around this professional services office. And it was for a big company. And they were like, oh, we’re going to close that office.

And he knew it when he went there. They’re like, it was a big company, big corporation. And they’re like, all right, we’re just going to wind that thing down.

And you’re going to be there when we’re winding it down. And he’s, I dug my heels in and I was like, no, I’m going to make this thing sing. I’m going to make this office so profitable and so awesome that they’re going to reconsider closing this thing down.

And so that was his attitude for two years. And he, and he worked and he worked and he came up with all of these different innovative things and he did boost the performance a ton. And they were like, hey, we told you we’re going to close this thing from the start.

And they told him that all along as he is bending over backwards to try to keep it open. And they ultimately closed it and he moved on and felt like that was a failure. And at the same time, he’ll share with me.

There are people who call me from that was 15 years ago. And there are people who will find me on Facebook or LinkedIn and say, that was the best work experience that I ever had. We did such awesome work together.

But he never found his rhythm after that because he threw the gauntlet down in his mind. He failed. And I’ve been trying to reframe with him like, well, you didn’t keep the office open, but look at all this impact that you made.

Look at the skills that you gained and the process of it. And so had you thrown the gauntlet down again after that, you’d be doing it now with all of this skills and experience and network and people who are backing you up because of it. Right.

And so I think that’s the thing is, yeah, most people have a gauntlet-throwing moment in their lives. And I’m sure that you have ones where you’ve thrown the gauntlet and fail. Oh, no, I do.

But for us, it’s like, what can I learn from this thing? What’s the feedback? I’m not dead.

So that means I can keep going. Right. And so now what do I do now?

What gauntlet do I throw? Do I still really want this thing? Is it still a 10 out of 10 for me?

Or am I not willing to learn from and adapt in the ways that are necessary in order to get this thing? Is my heart really still in it? Or do I need to go look for another gauntlet to throw?

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Jess Dewell 37:28
Let’s get back to the conversation with Apollo Emeka. The reframes make such a big difference. And here’s the thing.

Maybe somebody is listening in there in the middle of this failure where they’re like, no, I’m just never going to do that again. Or I can’t believe I tried that even or whatever it is. I hope you can listen to this and reframe.

By the way, I love this phrase. I wish I could remember who said it offhand. Hope is a warrior emotion.

This works in business as much as it does in any part of life. And I’m thinking about how does that relate to what we’re talking about now, Apollo? And I think part of that is what you’re saying.

What skills do we have? What learnings do we have? What passion do we have?

What drive do we have? What commitment do we have? And let’s just hope and take action and see what happens.

There’s a warrior element of that for what we’re talking about here. Maybe even just the step of reframe is the hope. How do I reframe this?

And what would happen? And I know this was wood in this, but that’s an okay. I think that’s okay once in a while to get us out of a place of stuck into a place of momentum.

And then yeah, for sure.

Apollo Emeka 38:37
And wood. It’s funny because wood is not on my naughty list.

Jess Dewell 38:40
I know it’s not on.

Apollo Emeka 38:41
Yeah, I remember. Can and should and could. Those are on my naughty list.

There’s this book called A More Beautiful Question. And I love this book. And one of the questions that he asks is how might we?

You know, opening things with how might we? And I think that’s really positive and effective because again, it’s the next step after you say you want a thing. Okay, I want this thing.

It’s not saying, can I do it? Creating this binary situation that’s based on a snapshot of who you are right now and your capabilities and resources right now. Instead of going that simple, it’s how might we?

What would it take? What would need to occur in order to? If you want to advance, you’re going to have to step into a new situation that you haven’t encountered before.

So if you are using what you can do, guess what? The things that you can do are getting you your current results. That’s right.

Your current trajectory. Your current destination. So that’s why can is so dangerous because what can you do?

You can do all the things that are getting you what you have right now. If you don’t want, but you don’t grow and you don’t get to a different destination.

Jess Dewell 39:55
The phrase that keeps coming back to me is, okay, so as part of this reframe and only using what we know limiting, we’re talking about it. You are demonstrating that through what you are sharing. Back to the basics is coming to mind.

Apollo Emeka 40:09
Yeah, absolutely.

Jess Dewell 40:10
How does that fit into this to be able to pass what we can do and into what we’re commit to do?

Apollo Emeka 40:18
I love it. When we talk about back to the basics in special forces, we talk about being masters of the basics. And so being masters of the basics is what differentiates elite military units from mediocre ones is that we, we take the basics really seriously.

And if you look at sports teams, focus on blocking and tackling the basics, right? It’s not fancy trick plays. It’s not, it’s blocking and tackling.

And, and there’s this sports analogy that I just discovered. That’s almost, I love almost as much as broccoli and pulling the stalks of broccoli off to create your plan. But I have to tell you about step three in my process first before, before I introduce that.

And step three is, so step one is decide with heart. What’s the thing that’s going to be a 10 out of 10 for you or your team if you’re doing this as a group? Step two is what’s required to make those things a reality.

And again, this is where we’re avoiding can, should, and could. We’re saying, no, no, what absolutely has to happen. I like to say it’s like a passport item.

If you show up to the airport with your bags fully packed and all your tickets purchased and no passport, you are not going. So all of that busy work that you did, all of those things that you did, because you can do them are a waste because you didn’t do the thing you have to do, is you have to have a passport if you want to go on international travel, right? And so what you want to do is you want to identify what are the requirements.

That’s step two. What do you have to do in order to get there? And then step three is what would dang near guarantee that you get there?

And people have a hard time with this one, but I love the baseball analogy on this. If we take baseball, for instance.

Jess Dewell 42:00
I love baseball.

Apollo Emeka 42:01
Oh, that’s funny. Okay. All right.

Okay. You might, you’re going to be, I don’t love baseball. So you’re probably going to be able to do more with this than I can actually.

But if you want to win in baseball, you have to get runs. If you want to get runs, you have to get on base. If you want to get on base, you have to get base hits, right?

So getting people on base is a requirement in baseball if you want to win the game, right? And once you get on base, every time that ball is hit, you got to sprint your buns off to go get to the next base, right? So that way you can eventually sprint home.

Now, if you’re on base and someone comes up and knocks it out of the park, sprinting is no longer a requirement. You can take your sweet time. You can jog around those bases.

You and whoever else was on base and the person who hit the ball, right? And so those are what I like to call game changers. Step three is like the home runs.

But now you don’t want every single player who gets up to the plate to swing to try to hit a home run, right? Because more often than not, you’re going to strike out or you’re going to hit a pop fly that is going to get you out, right? And so you want to be able to…

The requirement is that you get people on base. A game changer is that you sprinkle in these folks at opportune times who can knock it out of the park that now just made your requirements of sprinting home irrelevant, right? Everyone is guaranteed to score when that next person gets up and hits a home run.

And so that’s how I like to develop strategies for individuals and teams is this healthy mix of what’s a base hit? And how do we make sure that we’re getting all the base hits? So that way you’re getting lots of people on base.

And how do we make sure that you’re also every now and then taking these big swings that put four points on the board instead of just getting somebody on base?

Jess Dewell 43:59
Can I add to that?

Apollo Emeka 44:00
Please.

Jess Dewell 44:01
I’m also thinking about this. When we have that mentality, we’re asking the universe to step up and give us their best. And guess what?

Some of the reasons we get to advance in our bases in baseball is because of errors of the other team. We are setting ourselves up for good luck here. We are setting ourselves up for the right time.

So I’m going to take your baseball analogy. I’m going to put a little twist on it. There’s some luck in that too, because when we’re on and when we’re doing everything and when we’re at our best, mastering the basics, showing up and understanding this, you’re right.

It’s basically guaranteed. It’s up to who makes the least mistakes. Can the other team make less mistakes than us when we’re out there?

I’m hearing preparation in that. I’m hearing not only commitment, but preparation of doing the appropriate and the right work, not just any work.

Apollo Emeka 44:50
Absolutely. So for me, when I was training for Special Forces, I was an intel nerd. I went into the military intelligence and I was training to be a Green Beret and to get selected and then go through this super long pipeline.

I realized that the basics, in order to be successful in that environment, were to be able to carry a lot of weight over long distances. And so it’s called rucking. Some people call it the tick, like the tick on your back.

It’s just like sucking the life out of you because all of the activities that you’re doing, you’ve got 40 to 140 pounds on your back. And so that’s what takes a lot of people out is that they just can’t deal with that weight because it’s almost like lifting weights while you’re trying to figure out how to use a radio or perform some tactical maneuver or whatever, right? Like you’ve got this extra physical pain that’s just nagging.

And so if that’s a problem for you, then everything else is going to be a problem. And the second thing was be a good teammate. And so those were the two things that I focused on throughout my entire time in the training pipeline is be physically strong and be able to carry a heavy ruck for a long time and be a good teammate.

And I was an intel nerd and I finished valedictorian. I was the distinguished honor grad for my class. The way I found out is they said, they called us all into a room and they’re like, yeah, check your paperwork to make sure that it’s good before you graduate.

And I looked at my paperwork and it said that, oh, your army commendation medal for a distinguished honor grad. I was like, my paperwork is not correct. It says that I got an army commendation medal for distinguished honor grad.

And the guy takes it and he’s like, that’s because you’re the distinguished honor grad. And he hands it to me. I was like, what? It was such an administrative process.

Jess Dewell 46:46
And that amazing accomplishment.

Apollo Emeka 46:50
Exactly. But again, it was like, it was not because I did all the things right. It’s because that’s why earlier when you asked me, am I big picture or clarity or what?

I’m like, oh, the big picture. What does it take in order to be successful in this environment? You have to learn how to speak another language.

You got to learn a technical specialty. You have to understand tactics and combat, all of this stuff. But if you can’t deal with a bunch of heavy weight on your back, all that other stuff becomes way harder.

So I was like, all right, I need to be a beast there. And if you can’t be a good teammate, then people aren’t going to want to help you. People are going to actually, you can vote.

You can vote people off the island in special forces training. And so I was like, okay, those are the two things that I need to focus on. And just really focusing on those two things made me the distinguished honor grad, where a lot of folks were trying to check every box and be the most badass tactical combat.

And I focused on those two things. And so that’s where I really strongly believe in being able to look at the big picture, look at what you want, look at what’s required, and then do the things that are required. And every now and then bet on some game changers, take some big swings that are going to really give you a huge advantage in getting there.

Jess Dewell 47:57
It takes us back to the very beginning where we were talking about communication and the intention and honesty that goes into communication with each other. And that’s impressive. So if I were to ask, if I were to say, you decided what your basics were to master in that situation.

Apollo Emeka 48:18
Yeah, because, and this is the thing that’s so hard is no one has a crystal ball. And so even some people get hung up on requirements and game changers because they’re like, how do you know? And it’s how else are you going to focus your resources?

You have to make decisions about what’s going to matter and then start moving in that direction, start investing. And if you notice that this thing that you thought was a requirement, you’re actually moving the needle without it, stop doing that other thing. It’s clearly not a requirement.

Or if you are, you think you’ve identified all the requirements and you’re going along and things are not moving, you’re clearly missing something. So now we have to figure out what is the requirement there. And it’s about, yes, deciding, do we believe this is required or not?

Jess Dewell 49:00
Yeah. So what makes it bold? What makes it bold to tell a high growth founder or entrepreneur that their path isn’t through innovation?

It’s through becoming, mastering the basics. I’m going to put boring in air quotes.

Apollo Emeka 49:21
My family recently moved to Panama after never having been here. And I guess we’re coming up on a year now. Had never been here before, picked up and moved here.

And it has caused a shift in my perception. I’m 41, I’m solidly in my forties. My body can feel it.

My brain’s starting to be able to feel it in all the best and worst ways. These quotes about mortality have been standing out to me more in this season of my life and having young kids and seeing how they approach life. I’ve been thinking about that a lot.

When people are on their deathbeds, they’re never like, oh man, if only I had shipped more features. People are thinking about the impact that they had on if not the world, the people around them. They’re thinking about the quality of their relationships.

They’re thinking about the richness of their experiences. So for me, the bold thing is saying, how fast can I commit to that stuff? How fast can I commit to the stuff that’s going to matter when I’m looking back on my life versus market share, versus shipping the most best features.

We all need to work, right? It’s cool to take pride in your profession and to get enjoyment out of vocation. I think the bold thing is to say, how do you do that without being obsessed?

How do you do business and be successful in business coming straight from the heart and looking at other people’s hearts and enlisting other people’s hearts? Because that’s how you really build a powerhouse business, a powerhouse organization is when you’re 10 out of 10, other people look at it and they’re like, dang, that’s inspiring. I can feel that.

That’s a 10 out of 10 for me too. And now you’ve got all these brains working to solve the problems that you care about. So for me, what’s bold isn’t, oh, cool, we’re going to be the number one, blah, blah, blah in our space.

And we’re going to have the most MMR and the most daily active usage. All of that stuff is going to be meaningless when you look back on your life. And so those things are means to an end in one bucket of life that matters, which is the wealth component.

But what about the health and the relationships and the impact? So to me, what’s bold is making a four-dimensional decision. Like this is, yeah, I’m going to do this in business and I’m going to accomplish this in business.

And I’m also going to accomplish this thing with regards to my relationships, with regards to the impact that I’m going to make on the world. And with regards to my own physical, mental, emotional, spiritual health. That right there is bold.

Announcer 52:11
And that brings us to the close of another powerful and fresh perspective on the Bold Business Podcast. In today’s volatile landscape, growth is a double-edged sword. To truly thrive, you must engage with your strategy, not just react to the day-to-day.

Without absolute alignment, your company faces a stark choice, outmaneuver or be outmaneuvered, grow or get left behind. Thank you for listening. And a special thanks to The Scott Treatment for technical production.