How to Scale Business by Empowering Others

Starting the conversation:

In a world where we can access information to learn anything we want, goal achievement will come from what you do with that knowledge. Tom Schwab, Founder and Chief Evangelist Officer at InterviewValet, talks about making the most of every day to do the work you are most passionate about.

Both in the moment and looking backwards at what happened, use the experience to align your actions to the necessary work. Articulating your goals is a necessary part of achievement. Being intentional and leading with gratitude creates an opportunity for the next breakthrough, being one conversation away. Most importantly, when you care deeply about something, go after it. Follow Tom Schwab’s sage advice from a friend: “Don’t die not knowing.”

In this program, you will hear the importance of pulling out information with which to experiment and work toward your goals; how to reframe situations to help yourself stay present; and the benefits of being able to look at things concerning your business from the inside as well as from the outside. Jess Dewell talks with Tom Schwab, Founder and Chief Evangelist Officer at InterviewValet, about why it is BOLD to commit to doing what it takes to make your desired impact.

Host: Jess Dewell

Guest: Tom Schwab

What You Will Hear:

3:10 What are you really doing when you consume media (like audiobooks and podcasts)?

• Are you listening to learn or spark ideas?
• Are you listening to solve a specific problem or assess a specific opportunity?
• Do something with what you intentionally listen to, watch, or read for self-development.

9:40 Know your biggest priority — as a learner, it could easily be consuming.

• What can I learn?
• What do I want to learn (if anything)?
• Do I seek entertainment?

11:30 Take time to be alone with your thoughts.

• Self-development and personal accountability as a business owner.
• Do some of the exercises that you consume. Example given: 12-Hour Walk
• Make it your own: Tom Schwab does a quarterly Walkie Talkie.
• It is OK to try something new, and never do it again.

14:35 Practice reframing to come back to being present and intentional.

• Create your own mind space. Tap into your mind-body connection.
• Anchor into what is important to you.
• Sometimes we get lost (actually lost) and encounter something seemingly perfect.
• Tom shares examples of just-right-timing and being one conversation away from the next big idea.

21:03 What if you stop “fighting” everything by overplanning?

• Your best moves never come from sitting at your desk.
• Overplanning obstacles: miss opportunities and not ask for help in time.
• Improve your relationships by shifting “how can I help” to “I can help you do _.”
• Continuously question: What brings you value and what do you with that knowledge?

28:10 Do the right work right now. Always.

• Question what to let go and what has become a burden.
• Contemplate what is in your control, and what you can delegate.
• Know what you must know and then manage your time.

31:20 The importance of preparing to step out of the center of your business.

• It takes courage to consider it at all, think and feel through going on a six-week sabbatical.
• What constraints exist — the skill, roles, how redundant you can make the work you do.
• Include the people who will be responsible for your work when you are out.
• Burnout is closer than we think. This is one exercise to help assess how close you may be to burnout and how to avoid it.

35:49 Add an outside view to your inside view for strategic planning and execution.

• It will help you see areas of value within your business (both the tangible and intangible).
• A clear point of view makes it easier to do this work.
• If I had $1 million handed to me right now, I would…

42:53 Challenge your ideas to make sure you see the most potential possible for growth aligned with your biggest goals.

• Bring joy to your work, even on the tough days.
• Traditions can change (and probably will) — so the way you’ve always done it will shift.
• Learn the skills you need to reach your goals.
• Know what you will humbly stop doing.

46:59 It is BOLD to commit to do what it takes to make the impact you desire.

Resources

• The Secret Behind Improving Your Executive Presence? Be Yourself
• Exceptional Leaders Look Beyond the Obvious

Transcript

Tom Schwab 00:00
We put our heads down, and we just work harder, and we sit in our cubicle. Why don’t you just take a breath, call somebody, explain your problem to it? They’ve probably already done it.

Jess Dewell 00:08
You can plan so much and other stuff’s going to happen, but if we’re too focused, we’re going to miss the answer that’s trying to come to us.

Jess Dewell 00:17
I’m so glad you’re here. Thanks for stopping by the Bold Business Podcast we are normalizing important conversations. Yes, there are tips. Yes, there are ways to solve problems. More importantly are going to be what do you need for your to be able to solve those problems and make the most of the education, the training and the programs that you are already using? This is a supplement to that. It can sit on top of it. Fuel your soul, fuel your mind. And most importantly, regardless of where you’re at on your journey, maybe you’re starting out, maybe you’re ready to scale, maybe you’re going through reinvention. The conversations we are having will help you at each of those stages. So hang around, see what’s going on and I look forward to seeing you engaging with our videos.

Announcer 01:10
You are listening to the Bold Business Podcast where you will hear firsthand experiences about what it really takes to ensure market relevance and your company’s future.

Jess Dewell 01:22
You are going to hear in this conversation questions that will help you understand what you’re consuming and why you’re consuming it and making sure you’re being intentional about your work and effort. You are also going to be able to hear things about reframing this concept of present and intentional are more important today than ever before and the way that we look at things and knowing we’ve got to get something done and how do we actually go get it done. That’s an interesting part of this conversation as well. We also talked about getting out on the center of business. We also talked about the importance of what that means and the fear that has to be overcome to get out of the center of your business as well as the opportunity that it brings and his journey and his story around that. You’d never know that his first job out of college was running a nuclear power plant. You’d never know that he lived a full long life. Yet you hear the experiences and what stuck with him and what he’s learning and what he’s carrying forward day to day and then sharing with the world and then delivering through his product. You read, consume, do things that can help you actually right now, which means you’re seeking out the people who are going to help you be creative, spark an interest, question the way you’ve been doing something so that you can go after something new or different.

Tom Schwab 02:49
You go on a podcast or listen to a podcast for new ideas, new viewpoints, new paradigms. Not necessarily, how do I do this? So I live in Michigan, right? Every year I’ve got to put the snowblower on the front of my tractor.

Jess Dewell 03:05
I love that you have a tractor. I don’t have a tractor. That in itself is pretty cool, Tom.

Tom Schwab 03:09
I’ve got the tractor. We’re in the snow belt here. I watched the same video by the same guy every year, and he shows me how to put it on, right? It’s not like I’m listening to a podcast for it, or I’m like in the middle of summer going, wow, I want to follow that guy’s video reels, right? No, it’s. I need it at that time. Show me the five steps to do that. But what I’m trying to do other times, like when I’m listening to podcasts or even when I’m really listening to audiobooks, right? I’m not looking for the 10 steps to do something. I’m looking for a new idea, a new paradigm, something that’s going to stretch my mind that I can then apply. And to me, that’s what creativity is.

Jess Dewell 03:53
I agree with you. Okay, so now I’m going to ask you a question because I definitely have a soapbox about this, and I’m curious if you do. Tom. How many books do you read in a year?

Tom Schwab 04:01
This is a loaded question.

Jess Dewell 04:03
I know. I even told you I was setting you up.

Tom Schwab 04:06
If you define read as pick up a paper book and go through the pages, underline notes and everything like that, probably about 24. But if you’re saying, how many books do you listen to?

Jess Dewell 04:21
I’ll say consume or use.

Tom Schwab 04:22
Consume. I’m probably going through about four books a week, maybe 200 books. And I’m going through them, listening at one and a half times speed as I run at half X speed. But I’m just trying to get that big idea. And if there’s one that isn’t that’s really powerful, then I’ll buy the hardcover book. And that’s the one that I’m going to go through, underline, make notes, and that’s where I’m really reading it. The other ones, I think I’m just more consuming for a big idea.

Jess Dewell 04:52
I’m similar. I can and I consume a lot. So I love books. I probably I’m going to say really read, whether that’s consume or stop and take action along the way. So when I so if I’m going to take action along the way, whether it’s highlighting through because I have the physical book, whether it’s oh, I need to throw that over in a note because I need to come back to that, whether it’s consuming for a big idea, I’m reading probably I might be reading 30 to 50 books a year, so I’m not reading as much as you are. But like you, when you include reading to be consumption, I am actually consuming other kinds. I consider podcasts like books actually, and I know you do too. So when I said books, it actually probably limited your answer some. So now to expand out on that, I listen to, I like to read articles. I, I’m in not the how-to kind, but what’s going on in the world. What are other people saying in other industries that I’m not in, like archeology or anthropology or history. Some of my favorite topics that when I’m really reading or, or consuming, that’s actually where I’m spending a lot of my time. Even though I love to read business books, I actually think I don’t count the business books I read if I am just getting a big idea. So I might have to go back and assess. You made me think about that differently, Tom.

Tom Schwab 06:14
I read a lot of books because of our clients, right? So we do a lot of nonfiction book tours and so I always want to read the book so I can understand the client a lot better. We call them guests that so that I can understand their value proposition to the market, what they’re doing there. It’s hard to consult to somebody if you don’t understand their point of view. So if they’re a client, I will definitely read the book if it’s just a prospect. One of the things that I’ve been trying and it’s worked out pretty well and I didn’t count this in my list of four a week. Jess. I’ll take the PDF of it. You drop it into NotebookLM is say, give me the 30-minute podcast version of this. It’s like audio Cliff Notes. At least I get the big idea. So now between our discovery call and the roadmap call, I can talk about the book.

Jess Dewell 07:09
Okay. We just ventured into this amazing territory, Tom, of not only is reading now listening, if we think about reading books, if you say reading books, people automatically include what they’re listening or like you, they will say, hey, I’m Reading this and I’m listening to that. And now what I just heard you say is this whole other element, which by the way, I’ve done too. And I also am not counting that as reading. But it is consumption of information we’ve asked. It’s almost like we’ve asked somebody else to read it and it’s just a computer instead of a person. And giving us the executive summary of that, which by the way, I love AI for here have all this big data set. What can you give me? Because even though I’m a small company, I can have access to big data kind of results in a whole new way. So I appreciate that making your own audio executive summary all on your own saves everybody time and you still get what you need for that big idea, for that question, for that starting point. Because I like to read and I like to read books of people I’m going to meet. I like to read books of people I have met. But I don’t have time to read all of those things. I mean there’s all kinds of things that go into that and usually I don’t have time means I’m prioritizing other stuff. So I’m going to own it and say it. I prioritize other things besides reading all the time, which is crazy because there are times in my life, different times where I would have prioritized reading over everything else, which is interesting. Where are you at in your world? I’m going to totally take a little bit of a left turn of that, of in the priorities that you have. Is consumption, knowledge, big ideas your focus or do you have even bigger priority than that?

Tom Schwab 08:52
I should have bigger priorities than that. That’s my go-to though, right? I’m a learner and sometimes people say you should spend more time creating content than consuming it. I’ve been working on my next book for way, way too long and people are like, why don’t you take some of the time away from reading books and write your own? I love learning, right? I love to be a student. And so for me, people say, how do you listen to four books a week? And I’m like a, I’ll say I’m an empty nester. Now if you got kids at home, life is a lot different. But outside, working, walking, doing anything, driving, I’m always listening to a podcast or an audiobook and my mind tends to wander if I just listen at normal speed. So with that I’m always listening at one and a half to two times speed. So it’s oh okay, I’ve got a draw an hour drive. Man, I can get round trip. Probably a, a book knocked out of that. I’ve got to fly someplace. Oh, great. I know that I will have a book done through that. Even morning runs and morning walks and stuff like that. It’s just what I do. Maybe it’s because I don’t want to be alone with my own thoughts.

Jess Dewell 10:06
I bet there’s something in your schedule that allows you to be alone with your own thoughts.

Tom Schwab 10:11
Here’s a book that changed my life. And it shouldn’t have been a book. It should have been a article in Esquire. Right? They took a two-page idea and turned it into a 200-page book. And it’s called the 12-Hour Walk. And the idea is to go out and just walk for 12 hours. No, no audio, no music. And I live out in the country. It should be a beautiful walk, no destination. And just the first time I did that, it was painful. The for the first few hours I got up at 5 am, started it before sun came up. All I could think of is, this is stupid. I could get so much stuff done. I could be back reading, catching up on email, whatever the busy work is.

Jess Dewell 10:56
Yeah.

Tom Schwab 10:56
And then about the time the sun came up, I’m like, oh, I’ve got another 10 hours of this. I need to change my mindset. So I started to think of all the people that I was thankful for. And for the next four hours it was like a spiritual walk. And I’m like, this is great. And then I started to notice different things. And I’ve done that a couple of times a year. But one of the things that I’ve changed on that is I call it a walkie-talkie. And so I do it four times a year now. And I’ll take a 12-hour period and I’ll go for a walk and I’ll reach out to people the week before. These could be friends, these could be college roommates, these could be family members, it could be clients, referral partners. Just interesting people I know. And I’ll reach out to them and say, hey, I’m going for a 12-hour walk. You want to join me for a half-hour of it? And we’ll do a half-hour phone call and the time goes so quick. And I’m more of a kinesthetic learner. So for me to be out there just walking and in nature having these great conversations, that is the fastest Saturday of my life every quarter. And so from the standpoint, I get the exercise, I get the ideas and there’s usually about 20 people that I haven’t talked to in way, way too long that I get to catch up for a half hour. I encourage you to do a walkie-talkie, write the two-page article on it or the 200-page book.

Jess Dewell 12:25
I think it’s really cool that in your experience of this idea and executing it on your own, you did a reframe so that you could be present in the moment, honor the intention that you set for yourself and be able to keep going. Because it’s amazing if you think about this. And that’s it. Sometimes it takes big projects or I’m going to say trials that had to have also taken courage to just go, I’m going to go, disappear for 12 hours. What does that actually mean for the whole rest of the world and. Or what does that mean for me and my thinking of how the rest of the world is going to be impacted by that. Right? So that was courageous. But then to go, turn around and go, I have to reframe that. Just think about how many times we have to reframe stuff every single day. It’s, it’s still before lunch here right now. And I know I’ve had at least three reframes that I have done going, oh, I have find myself at a crossroads. I can decide I’m done and not continue and be frustrated that I did not continue. I can get angry or frustrated and then all of the stuff that comes with that, or I can see if I can make it neutral or maybe even a little neutral positive and see what happens then. And that’s what I, that’s what I really want to call out here of what I heard you say that I think in addition to taking that big time was this piece of how do I want to show up in the world to this. I committed to it. I don’t know if I like it now.

Tom Schwab 13:53
What making sure that you’ve got that first call already scheduled. I, I don’t start late, right, Because I know there’s going to be somebody calling my phone. And it helps me keep the energy up by the end. When you catching up with an old friend, the time goes so quickly and all of a sudden you’ve got a half-hour call and you realize, oh my gosh, another half-hour is gone here. And at the end it just leaves me feeling good, feeling tired, but then also with the memories of the day of the people that I reached out to. And I think people really appreciate it and if you want to call it God, the universe, Whatever things have happened on those walks, always at the right time, right? I can remember one of them. I finished up. I hadn’t looked at my email in 12 hours, right? And it’s, you’ve got to check your email in 12 hours. The first email that I opened was from a mentor and he told he to let me know he was saying goodbye. He’d gotten diagnosed with pancreatic cancer a month after that. After that email, he had passed away. And it was just, I was in the right mind space for that. Another one. The last call of the day was with a, a friend from college. And as we were talking, he’s, hey, I’m glad you reached out. There was something I had to tell you. Oh, okay, what’s that? And he’s, I’ve got terminal brain cancer. And three months later, he wasn’t there. And I’m thinking, oh, you know, would I have taken that email from, from my mentor differently if I hadn’t have been in that mind space? How bad would I have felt if three months later I would have gotten a call from Brett’s widow saying, oh, he passed away? Because he wasn’t telling anybody he had cancer. It was just that I reached out and he, since we’re talking here, I wanted to share it with you. And so those little things there, and it’s like, those are the important things in my life. I will not remember the email that I opened this morning or the to-do list I finished up. As I look at the big things that are going to move my life, move my business, it’s always one conversation away, not just one funnel away.

Jess Dewell 16:04
You’re listening to the Bold Business Podcast. I’m your host, Jess Dewell. This is your program for strategizing long-term success while diving deep into what the right work is for your business, right now.

Announcer 16:17
You’re listening to the Bold Business Podcast hosted by Jess Dewell, a nationally recognized strategic growth consultant. She works with business owners and executives to integrate just two elements that guide business through the ups and downs of growth. Number one, know what work is necessary. Number two, do all the work possible. Schedule a complimentary consultation to find, find out more at reddirection.com.

Jess Dewell 16:48
I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced this. I know in my career journey and I don’t play golf. I know in my career journey, I have missed out on being in the right place at the right time for a deal or a connection or something because I was not on the golf course when somebody else that I wanted to be with was and this sounds like an equally powerful way to have that same connection to get to that right time. And in some ways it’s a reframe and in some ways I would say it’s an upgrade or the next version. Because while connection is important in proximity of what’s going on, top of mind is important. When we are taking the initiative and saying we are available, we are accessible, then what? Anything can happen and we get into those big powerful connections in a whole other way. I’m appreciative that you shared that and how it does because you’re right. I think if I finding out after the fact and recognizing, oh, that was a big thing and how could I have missed that in the moment, I think I would. That would weigh on me personally and has in the past.

Tom Schwab 17:58
I think as a business owner, I’m a control freak, right? I want to fix problems, control everything. And sometimes I think God just laughs, right?

Jess Dewell 18:07
Sometimes with us, at us, in spite of us. I don’t know.

Tom Schwab 18:13
If nothing else, I hope I amuse them, right? Locking the door as I’m fighting to figure out the way to open it up. And I remember years ago being at a conference, right? And I had this conference all planned out, Jess. I had, I’m going to be at this one, I’m going to listen to this person and go to this one. And I don’t know if I got confused or if it was the worst laid-out conference ever, but I kept getting lost. And it was interesting because every time I got lost, I ran into somebody that was like the perfect person. And I was like, wow, this is, wow, this is amazing. What a coincidence, right? No. Why don’t you just stop fighting everything? And one of the things that I’ve come to realize over the years is that I’ve never had a creative idea sitting in front of my desk. Always comes out, going someplace, talking with someone, right? And too often as business owners, when things get hard, we put our heads down and we just work harder. We sit in our cubicle and we can figure this out. And it’s like, why don’t you just take a breath, call somebody, right?

Jess Dewell 19:19
Yeah.

Tom Schwab 19:20
Explain your problem to it. They probably already done it, right? Or they’ll give you a fresh perspective on it. And from that standpoint, I have to remind myself of that because I’ll work hard, not necessarily efficiently.

Jess Dewell 19:33
You arrive at the pearly gates and you said, how come you didn’t help me? And if you were in a flood, the thing is, I sent you a boat. I sent you A helicopter. I sent you a raft and you didn’t take any of them. And so what I’m hearing you, that’s what was coming to mind as I was listening to you talk about, not only does the planning get away from your desk, make that phone call, but I’m also thinking, if we expanded on that, how do you feel about something that’s. It’s like you can plan so much and other stuff’s gonna happen. But if we’re too focused, whether it’s in our business, whether it’s in our. Whether it’s on a problem that we’re facing someplace in our life, we’re gonna miss the answer that’s trying to come.

Tom Schwab 20:15
To us, we’re gonna miss it or not ask for the help. And that’s the other thing too is I like being helpful. I don’t like asking for help. To me, that was always a sign of weakness. And I can’t remember who helped me reframe this. And it was probably a podcast that I heard at some point. And they talked about the vanity behind that of, right, when somebody says, can I help you? Oh, no, right. I don’t need your help, what’s that saying? That you don’t value them to help or that you think you’re so great that you can do it all? And I found that early on, as a business owner and as a manager, right. I felt like I had to do it all. And it was insulting to the team. One of the greatest things. Last year, my wife and I took six weeks off. We went to Europe for sabbatical and talk about walking again. We did the Camino de Santiago.

Jess Dewell 21:15
Nice. That’s on my list. I want to do that.

Tom Schwab 21:18
It was mind-blowing and life-changing. In 26 days, we work, we walked 500 miles and carried everything on our backs. And that was so great because the team was like, great, we can help you now. We can support you. And I, after six weeks, I’m like, I got to get back or they’re going to. They’re going to take over the whole business, right? There’s nothing they can’t do. And it really caused them to take up to the next level, right? It’s like with kids, do you trust them to do that next thing? And so from that standpoint, they came back and said it was a blessing for them to have the opportunity to step into those new roles.

Jess Dewell 21:56
A lesson that I wish I had learned earlier. And I don’t know why it was said to me this way or why I maybe I don’t know why I heard it when it was said this way. This is what I will say. People always ask, may I help you? I can tell you’re stressed. I can tell there’s a lot going on. What can I do all that? And maybe this is the style of learning I have. Maybe this is my personality. And I think there’s different things, right? Different lenses that we could have. So the lens that really resonated with me when I heard it was, what if you showed up and said, I can do this for you? Is now a time that would be helpful. For example, if I know somebody is going to be having a surgery and they happen to be in a place I can drive to, I can be like, my favorite thing to do in the world is vacuum. My second favorite thing to do in the world, outside of having conversations like ours, Tom, is grocery shopping. I love the grocery store and I love the vacuum. So I will be like, oh, you’re going to be out. If I would, I can vacuum for you. Just tell me when I can come over if that would help you. I can grocery shop for you anytime. Text me your list and it will show up and I’ll even put it away. So I show up with a task I can do so they don’t have to think about it. Because then I’m like, Because I’m. I think part of the reason I wouldn’t ask or other people have started to hedge is when they did ask, they asked it of somebody who didn’t feel they could do the task well. And so I did the mind shift of, if I can say this is something I can do no matter who you are, no matter where you are in my geographic area, and if you’re far away, I’m like, I can instacart for you. If you just need to sleep instead, no problem. It’ll show up at your door. Right? Those are things. So I can do this for you because it leans into things that are easy for me to work in. I get excitement and I feel good when I can do them for people. Plus, it’s not an extra burden. Like, I’m taking your task and taking my task. No, I already have to go to the grocery store. I gladly go for you, too. And I think that actually helps lessen the burden of being able to receive help. Also, because I think a lot of us, we don’t want to be a burden as much as we think we’re needed.

Tom Schwab 24:05
It turned it from what can I do to help you? That’s a tough Question. I don’t know. What can you do? I don’t want to ask too much. I would want to ask too little. And talk about somebody that’s going through a hard time in their life. You don’t need one more decision fatigue.

Jess Dewell 24:22
Yeah.

Tom Schwab 24:22
But to say, hey, I would love to grocery shop for you, or I love vacuuming. Can I do that for you? Now it’s a yes, no question. That makes it much easier. Reminded me. made me think I worked support for a. It was a 50-mile race, I think in Michigan. It’s called Dances with Dirt and it goes through hell. [What a great name.] It’s great. And I was supporting that. And I’d done races before and it’s asked people, hey, you want some Gatorade? You want some water? What do you want? And we got toward the end there and somebody told me, you can’t ask them questions. What do you mean? It will confuse them. And it was. So they come through. They’ve been running 40 miles.

Jess Dewell 25:05
Yeah.

Tom Schwab 25:06
They’re so tired. If you ask them, do you want water or Gatorade, they’ll look at you funny. And as they’re trying to figure it out, and so they’re like, so it said, they said, just take their canteen there, their jug and say, I’m going to fill this up with water and Gatorade. And they’ll smile and say, yes or thank you. Here’s a banana. You should have some. Here’s some bread. You should have some. And it’s just. It makes it so much easier for them. And both people are trying to be helpful, but one of them is. Is putting more burden on the person.

Jess Dewell 25:44
I don’t know about you, but I operated a high stress level. And I’m like, I am not gonna know. If somebody asked me, I would be like, nope. Because I can’t think about that. [Yes.] I’m a. Or I can, but I really am not going to prioritize that. That’s too much work. And that’s really cool. I know. And being able to jump in. One of the things. So I have this conversation this week, speaking of like this in the. There was an opportunity that’s coming my way and it’s a person that I have collaborated with in the past. And they said to me, I really like this idea. This is already really big. If you come and help me, I don’t want more work for myself. So how cool was it that this person had figured out people want to come and help, but to the same thing. If I have to be involved with how you help. You’re actually not helping me. Could we claim that? So I appreciated that person’s point of view of I’m just claiming this as.

Tom Schwab 26:40
A business owner too. It’s like asking our clients, how can we help you? And is this helpful? I remember we started out the business, right? The best piece of fiction I’ve ever read or written was the business plan, right? This is exactly what we’re going to do for three to five years. And then to ask clients what brings you the most value? So do more of that. What doesn’t bring you value? Then why are we doing that? Or I think of clients, we’ve always, with our podcast interviews, we know it’s important to repurpose the content and promote it. And we would teach our clients how to do that. And so many of them would come back and say, listen, I don’t want to be taught. Can you do this for me? And early on we would say, no, we don’t do that. Right. I need it done. We know how to do it. So we would do it for them. And then there was another client that said, you’ve been making this for me for the last three months and it’s sitting on my inbox. Yeah, can you post it for me? And we’re like, yeah, we don’t do that. But Mickey, for you, we’ll do it. And he’s so happy, right? Because now he’s getting the value on us.

Jess Dewell 27:48
If we don’t want to be in the center, we may set up our business, our service, our process that way. We may even set up our role that way inside our business, whether we’re looking outside to a customer, whether we’re working inside with our own team. And you’ve given examples of both of those. Tom, when you went on your 26 day journey and did 500 miles, right? And then now you’re talking about just stuff showing up that seems to be day-to-day tasks that really push people into, over the edge of it is going to sit there for three months because it’s not in the strength, it’s not there. And that’s the obstacle. And so being able to fully prep for what we’re doing. And I was going to use the, I was going to use it. How do we make sure that we are not the center of our business? Because to scale and it doesn’t matter how big you are and it doesn’t matter how big you get. At some point, I’ve seen $25 million a year companies be centered around a single person in the middle. And they come to me and they’re almost burnt out. And we have to. Our goal is we got to get you out of burnout, which means we got to change things so that you aren’t in the center of the anymore. And that push-pull of what we’ve set up in our belief system really matters. And so you’ve gone through this and you even gave the example of, I stepped away and allowed everybody else to step up, and you actually indicated that was hard for you. So I’m very curious of what made you even willing to courageously move in the direction of, I am going to step away and be unavailable for a period of time? Part one. So that’s where we’ll start.

Tom Schwab 29:19
I give all the credit to my team and my number two, Jessica Morgan. When I offered her the position to be the chief operating officer, it was just after she announced that she was expecting. And I said, I know this is not a good time, right? But you’re the person I want for this job. And I loved her answer. She said, okay, but we got to get this stuff put together because I’m taking maternity leave and we talk about a great forcing function, right? It’s not like she said, I’m behind schedule, so we’re going to push out the delivery another four weeks. No, she had a hard stop for it and she got things put all together, right? She comes back from maternity leave, and God love her, she came back and she says, all right, now we need to work on getting things scheduled and put together for your leave, right? And in my mind, it was still six months out. We had talked about it, and I’m like, it won’t happen. It won’t happen. And she kept pushing us toward that. What else do we need to do? What else do we need to do? I really didn’t believe that my sabbatical was going to happen until I was on the plane. And I’m so glad because when I came back, there was a few things. One was that I noticed when she came back from maternity leave, she came back in a new role, right? Because all the things that she was doing before had been delegated. The people that were reporting to her had stepped up in the previous 12 weeks, and now she had this capacity to work on bigger things and things that really help the company. And it was the same way for me. After being gone for six weeks, I came back and largely my calendar was open. So what do you want to put in there that makes the biggest impact? And before you mentioned about burnout, I don’t think any of us realize how close to burnout we are. I sure didn’t recognize it till probably 10 days in to the Camino. And maybe it’s. I’ve never gone through recovery, but sometimes, like, they’re like, I didn’t realize I had a. Whatever problem, drinking problem until I was on the opposite side. I just thought that was normal. And then you get to the opposite side. So I think that chance to almost look at the bottle from the outside as opposed to just being in the inside, was very powerful and something we’re working into our company culture and stuff, too. Because honestly, I’m 59 and where I was pre. Pre-Camino, pre-sabbatical, I can see myself hitting probably 62 and saying, that’s it. I can’t. Even though I say I’m never going to retire, I can’t take this anymore. I think this added more to my creativity and my longevity. And I even had this discussion with. With somebody. I actually wrote an article for Collective 54 on this. I think I increased the value of my business more in the six weeks that I was gone than the six weeks I was there. Because if somebody was looking to value the business, they would say beforehand, this is all Tom-centric. It’s not going to work without him. After being gone for six weeks, they’re like, oh, it’s really a system. It works. These other people are doing it. So I think at a certain point, you’re harming the value of your business by being there all the time.

Jess Dewell 32:54
I don’t know where 26 came from. That’s hilarious. I said 26 days, and you’ve started to say six weeks. And I’m like, how did I mishear that? But I want to call it out because I was like, oh, that’s more than 26 days.

Tom Schwab 33:04
No, you had it right. We walked for 26 days but we were gone for six weeks. We spent other time in Europe.

Jess Dewell 33:12
It’s amazing to think about, because every single time people think we’re starting at the beginning, and this is the one thing that even when we are able to shift our point of view, one of the things that I have found, and you’ll have to tell me if this is your experience too, is that every time I had to start over or in a business decision that went really bad and we had to quote, unquote, backtrack, we didn’t backtrack to the beginning because we went back to the beginning with more knowledge. We went back to the beginning with more experience. We went back to the beginning with different ideas and concepts than we had before. So it’s really not back to the beginning. It’s the beginning of the next. Even if it’s the same thing again, whether it failed or didn’t.

Tom Schwab 33:52
I think that’s part of the reason why it’s easier to make your second million than your first million. It’s easier to start your second company than your first one, because that first one you don’t know what you don’t know and just the momentum to get things started after that, after you’ve seen the magic trick done once, even if you’ve done it poorly, it’s easier to do it the second time.

Jess Dewell 34:16
Now, you said it’s easier to make your second million than your first, which yes, that’s true. And I just listened to the Barenaked lady song if I had a million dollars. So if you had an extra million dollars around, what would you do? Tom?

Tom Schwab 34:27
I’m more on experiences. I would use that million dollars to have some experience and because at the end of the day, that’s all the memories I have. And a friend helped me understand this. And he since passed, but he got to a certain point in his life and he said, as I look back at all the Christmases, I don’t remember what gifts I got. But he says, I remember when all the family would get together and the stories. And so Brian just decided after that that he was not buying any more Christmas gifts. He’s got a beautiful home. He opened it up and he’s every year we’re doing a Christmas party here. And he’d had it catered so his wife didn’t have to do all the food. He had bartenders there. It was the most memorable party ever. And he’s if I bought gifts, nobody would remember them. But they’re going to remember the experiences here. So for that million dollars, it’s probably going to be some kind of great experience.

Jess Dewell 35:23
I’m your host, Jess Dewell, and we’re getting down to business on the Bold Business Podcast. This is where we’re tackling the challenges that matter most to you with actionable and achievable advice to get real results that lead to your success.

Announcer 35:42
Focused on growth? Listen to more programs like this which support the challenges and opportunities you are working with right now. Search Bold Business Podcast for the key terms at reddirection.com or your preferred podcast listening app.

Jess Dewell 35:56
I do New Year’s at noon, so New Year’s Eve. And it started when my son was tiny. Okay, Tom. And this was really funny. Cause I’m like, he wants to stay up, but he won’t make it. So how do we do this? I’m like, it’s midnight all the time somewhere in the world. And we live in this crazy realm where you can get an app on a phone that you can project to a TV that will have a countdown to midnight, wherever that midnight is. So when he was little and we still do this, people will come over. It’s like a brunch time. People will come over, we’ll have brunch, and they’ll hang out as long as they want in the afternoon. But we do A countdown at 11:59am on New Year’s Eve for the people who don’t want to stay up, for the people who don’t want to go out, and for us, so that we are. I feel like there’s a little less pressure that way.

Tom Schwab 36:45
I must admit that this year we did, we called it a Camino New Year’s Eve. So we celebrated when it was midnight in Spain, right? What was it, five or six o’clock here or something like that? That works for me.

Jess Dewell 37:01
It doesn’t have to be ours. Is also what I’m hearing in both of the stories. Brian’s story, your story about Spain, time for New Year’s Eve, my story, New Year’s at noon. And it can be that way for anything. And I think that we forget that that actually creates competitive advantage, whether that’s us learning a new skill, to try something new, or go into a new industry, or to expand our capability as a company, or to decide we’re at a new stage of life and we’re going to need to be able to reprioritize. But what does that need really? Versus what people are telling me it’s going to be what I need versus what’s real for me or us or the people involved. I think that’s a very interesting concept. And I hope more and more. One of the places that I love to play is a contrarian slash. Really? If you’re going to give me that idea or tell me you’re going to have to do that, I’m going to be like, well, what do you want from me? You want me to say, okay, because you’ve thought about it, or do you want me to give you a different idea because I’ve got one of those too? Or a point of view to consider, not to do anything other than make sure that you’re really sure? Because I care about you. But I ask. Sometimes you got to keep your mouth closed, Tom.

Tom Schwab 38:05
I have had so many people in my life that loved me enough to tell me the truth. I can remember one of them challenged me to do a triathlon. And I looked on that and I said the hardest class I had to take at college, I went to the Naval Academy, was swimming. I don’t swim. And he’s. That’s why you need to do it. Because as adults, and especially as business owners or as we get successful, we stop doing the things that we’re not good at.

Jess Dewell 38:39
Yeah.

Tom Schwab 38:40
And so that idea is, humble yourself, go and hire a swim coach, which turned out to be like a high school swim coach that was used to helping kids. And I got to be somewhat good. But you know what? I was not the first person out of the water. I wasn’t the last one, but it wasn’t the first. But so many times it’s, yeah, if I can’t compete and win, I’m not going to compete. No, that’s not how you learn. It’s not how you have the experiences there. And so that can be a challenge, too, with business people. If we got something that we don’t know how to do, I’m going to hire somebody, I’m going to farm it out, do some things yourself. That, that challenge you.

Jess Dewell 39:21
Are you in the middle of a challenge right now? That’s a path. Congratulations, by the way, on doing a trial at triathlon. That sounds amazing. Are you? What’s? Is there a challenge you’re working on today?

Tom Schwab 39:30
I don’t think so. Probably, I’d say the biggest one that I would focus on is minimalism. I love my stuff.

Jess Dewell 39:37
Yes. I love my stuff, too. I don’t keep buying stuff, but I do love the stuff. I have.

Tom Schwab 39:42
I’ve spent a whole life collecting my stuff. And what I realized when I was on the Camino is that I was happier with 20 pounds of stuff on my back, and that’s what I needed. And I’ve a friend of mine, Dr. Mary Kelly, great public speaker, I heard her say she went to the academy with her. She said, stuff doesn’t make me happy. And it really struck me. It’s. Yeah, it’s not the stuff that makes you happy, it’s the memories and everything. So I’ve been looking at that and saying, yeah, I want to minimize more things.

Jess Dewell 40:15
Okay. I have one, though. I have not challenged myself in a long time other than business. So it’s what skill Can I learn more? What do we need to do here? How do we expand that? And I realized that not only am I trying to work on other things outside of it and have other priorities, I was actually realizing I haven’t done something that was a little scary, that I had no idea how I was going to complete and that was actually have really good secondary benefits also. And it would be fun. And if I don’t make it, it won’t be the end of the world because I’m not as invested in it. Right? So I chose. Are you ready for this? I’m, I, I’m 46. I turned 47 in March. Out of the blue, in the middle of December. I said to my family, my son and my husband, I said, I think I’m, I think I know what, I’m going to challenge myself. And I, like, I said, I haven’t done this in a while. And I said, I’m going to do 48 pushups by the time I’m 48 years old. So it gives me just over 14 months. And I’ve been working since then. I still can’t do a whole push-up, but I am doing work every single day toward it. And I, it’s amazing how many people will teach you how to do pushups. So I went and I consumed information how to do a pushup. And I didn’t know I was doing pushups wrong. Part one. So when we’re learning these new skills to be open-minded and go, I think this is how you do it, but is that really how you do it? And I think this could be, I know what I want the outcome to be, but what does that mean? And then I found this other guy. My family’s very into health and wellness. And so about two weeks ago, because I’ve been doing this two weeks, we’re sitting down on the sofa at the end of the day, winding down, and my husband, his name is Ryan, he says to me, Jess, I have a book. And I’m like, we have books about everything. I’m like, okay, babe, what’s your book about? I’m thinking it’s something new. He goes, it’s over there on the shelf. And I don’t know why I bought it, but I guess it was pre preemptive because I, somebody knew we needed this in our house. It’s a hundred push-ups in seven weeks. And I was like, what? So I am, I’ve got this book now that says how to do a hundred push-ups in seven weeks. By the way, it doesn’t work if you can’t do. You have to be able to do one pushup to be able to do a hundred push-ups in seven weeks. But I got my pre-plan from this book look, right? But it’s weird and it’s different and it’s new and saying it out loud is scary. Still, I’m not. You’re like the third person I’ve told.

Tom Schwab 42:34
You can learn anything now with YouTube and all the rest of that. Years ago, I, my kid, my grandkids now are 8 and 10 and I learned to juggle just to amuse them. I was the best juggler they had ever seen, right? Yes. And I was the only juggler they’d ever seen. They were so excited by it. And then somebody told me, you need to learn to make balloon animals, man. When I learned to make balloon animals, I was a God, right? I started out with dogs, right? And they were. No, swords were the first ones, right? And then dogs. And every time they’d see me, they’d want to know what was the new balloon animal. And it was just so fun to see the joy in their face. It doesn’t have to be something amazing, right? But a new skill. And it. It was. It’s humbling to learn how to juggle, right? It’s humbling to have a balloon blow up in your face. But yes, you learn.

Jess Dewell 43:35
Oh, I know. It’s very humbling to know you have no core so you can’t actually do a full pushup. But I knew that going in. It’s. And. But I am getting cheered on. I’ll tell you what, I love that. So you’ve been doing this too. And this is. I think that this is so great because we’re talking about so many neat things that all relate to a whole full life that don’t take up our whole full life. Are you still signing up on Saturdays to make balloon animals?

Tom Schwab 44:03
They’ve outgrown that skill. I mean, I could probably do it right now, but it’s like the new thing on there.

Jess Dewell 44:10
And that’s what I’m thinking. I’m like 48 pushups by the time I’m 48 is only going to get me to be able to look at the world in a different way. Whether I decide to stay doing 48 pushups or more or less or at all is to be determined. And I think that one of the things that we’ve talked around that I want to just pull out here is we’re not adding to us to carry it going back to your minimalism con comment. We’re adding it to get what we need so we can let it go, make space for what’s next. How does that feel and sound and land with you?

Tom Schwab 44:44
Dan Miller from 48 Days, the work you love. Great mentor. And he was the one that introduced me to this. You got to let go of the good to get to the great. And so all the people have, here’s my New Year’s resolutions. Here’s the new things that I’m going to do before he’d even start that he’d start before January 1st on the. Here’s what I’m going to stop doing. And sometimes that can be the harder part and you can’t be doing more. More. You’ve got to stop doing some things. And there are certain things that are probably. There’s a season, a time for them. Yeah. I don’t spend time now learning how to make new balloon animals because there’s not a benefit to it. I don’t get the thrill from that. I don’t get the audience feedback anymore on that. There’s something new in there. But, yeah, I think just because you start something doesn’t mean you have to do it forever. I. I always make myself commit to I’m going to do this for a year. Podcasts are a prime example. Right. 80% of podcasts die within the first 10 episodes. It’s called pod fade. People start out and it’s, oh, this will be so much fun. And then it becomes so much work. It’s like New Year’s resolutions that stop by the 15th of January. So if I’m going to do something, I’ll commit to it for a year, but it doesn’t mean that I’m going to commit to it for the rest of my life. I did two triathlons. I enjoyed them, but I’m not going to do triathlons the rest of my life. Same way my wife and I met was that 21 years ago, training for a marathon. She still does marathons. I don’t. Just because I looked at it and said for all the training value in it and the time that it takes, I just don’t want to invest that. So, it’s can’t do everything. So I’m going to choose what I do.

Jess Dewell 46:36
I’m glad you’re saying that. And I hope somebody that is listening and watching can embrace that and make a change for yourself. Right now, that is the one thing I would say from this conversation is learning new things is great. And recognizing what can we let go of so that we can learn those new things and really, truly be a learner again and go back to that beginning with what we know. Is what I’m hearing you say, Tom.

Tom Schwab 46:58
Yeah.

Jess Dewell 46:59
And it’s okay to try something and not like it. Heck, that’s even the bigger piece, maybe, in some ways. Okay. I want to know what makes it bold. I want to know what makes it bold to be willing to challenge yourself, to look at the world a different way or try something new or even let go of something.

Tom Schwab 47:17
I’m going to go back to my friend that. That passed away, Brett. One of his favorite phrases that he would use was don’t die not knowing. Right. Can I do it? I don’t know. Let’s find out. Let’s do it. And I think we live in a great time. I heard author Jamie Metzl wrote a great book called Super Conservative Super Convergence. He also wrote a book called Hacking Darwin, all about AI and health. And he says we live in the age of miracles. Why wouldn’t we do it? And there’s a lot of problems in the world, but there’s no better time to be alive. With all the things that we have here, why not be bold? Be, try it. What’s the worst thing that’s going to happen? I was talking to a business owner the other day, and he was telling his story and everything like that. And it’s, yeah, I did this business and it worked great. I sold this one and then this one went bankrupt. And he just goes on from the same thing. It’s not the end of the world.
I can think of another entrepreneur I was talking to, and I loved his line. He said, I wish I had gotten fired sooner. And I’m like, what is. Yeah. That’s what helped me cut from the comfort, the golden handcuffs, whatever it was of being an employee and do what he wanted to do. And so from that standpoint is, yeah, don’t die not knowing. There’s. We’ve got all a net underneath us, Right. What’s the worst thing that’s going to happen? It’s still probably better than our parents or our grandparents ever had it when they succeeded. So why not be bold? It’s. If you knew you couldn’t lose or that losing only met this, why wouldn’t you bet more?

Jess Dewell 49:07
Every single time I have a conversation, I take away something that I want to share with 25 people I know. When you’re listening to this podcast, you’re also listening for that and will have something that you want to share in the comments. I would like for you to engage with us. What is that thing that you want to tell 25 people from this program? Here’s why it’s important. It’s important because yeah, there are going to be how-to’s. Yes, there are going to be steps. Yes, you’re going to be like, oh, I wish I wrote that down. I wish I wasn’t doing this and I could actually take action on that right now. But guess what? You’re not so engaged right now because. That one thing you want to share. With others will be the thing that you can figure out how to incorporate in your business, in your workflow, in your style. Tomorrow.

Announcer 49:57
Jess hosts the Bold Business Podcast to provide insights for building a resilient, profitable business by deeply understanding your growth strategy, ensuring market relevance and your company’s future. It is bold to deeply understand your growth strategy with your host Jess Dewell. Get more information about how to drive solutions and reset your growth mindset at reddirection.com thank you for joining us and special thanks to our post-production team at The Scott Treatment.