Harnessing The Power Of Modern Sales and Marketing

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Harnessing The Power Of Modern Sales and Marketing

Harnessing The Power Of Modern Sales and Marketing

As a business owner, it’s difficult to do the right work AND guide your company toward its next big initiative.

With Red Direction Business Base Camp, learn how to implement and handle processes to meet your business’s specific needs and better understand your market.

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Starting the conversation:

All you need are the right words that reach the right people at the right time. Easy, right? Yes, when you’re able to provide the time for discovery and development when creating marketing message and stories. Your customers are savvy, and to claim a spot in their crowded brain space requires diligence in order to maintain objectivity. Mark Carpenter, Chief Storyteller and John Gumas, CEO of Gumas, discuss how to effectively adapt sales and marketing strategies to changing customer preferences.

It is time to acknowledge you may be working in a silo, telling your existing and potential customers — instead of showing them — how your product helps save time and money as well as improve their overall business. The indirect work of demonstration allows the discovery and challenge of assumptions, as well as the thoughtful observation of emotion (or lack of) when people are presented with your brand.

In this program, you will hear how important it is to prioritize time to discover, in today’s marketplace, how you are different — and the words needed to drive action. You also will find out the practical ways our panelists utilize their time and foster curiosity. Jess Dewell hosts Mark Carpenter, Chief Storyteller and John Gumas, CEO of Gumas, to talk about why it is BOLD to adapt sales and marketing efforts to changing customer behaviors.

Host: Jess Dewell

Guest: Mark Carpenter and John Gumas

What You Will Hear:

It is typical to guess and assume what the marketing message and tactics should be.

You have seven seconds to introduce a product or service to new customers.

“If you build it they will come” is common thinking in business that must change.

Be intentional about inviting people to the path where they need to be (to buy your product).

The first thing to do for successful marketing today is to find out what works and have a succinct story.

You have one shot to be successful, so be methodical and systematic!

Take the time to find the right words for the right people at the right time.

Discovery is a process and the more you put into it the better the end result.

Dig deep to find clarity around differentiation, words that drive action, the lessons to be heard are all below the easy narrative.

An outside set of eyes will hear and observe reality and help close the gap between what people hear and what you think they are hearing.

It is easy to get into a silo of thinking we have the right marketing messages and get in our own way.

Tips to find out when you are in your own way and what to do about it: be curious and ask questions to find assumptions and tap into when you are under the curse of knowledge.

Consistent and constant work is required — two tips to revolutionize the relationship to time for company marketing initiatives and how to get the most return from them.

How to be creative when you aren’t in the shower.

The connection to execution of the program to messaging is now part of brand marketing.

Additionally, for the Fast Track Your Business Today Uncut conversation:

What is the most immediate need for your marketing right now?

You know you are successful when … everyone says the same thing at the same time.

How to collect and digest the knowledge you need to make decisions in your favor.

Integrate information from marketing to determine the pulse on your connection to the right customer at the right time.

Proactively let go. Make space for the next iteration or something totally different.

Step back otherwise, you are in a hurry and go nowhere.

How to map out the way to get there.

What to do to show value as part of your delivery.

The indirect work that directly supports profit and long-term growth goals.

Don’t guess. Face the unknown and get information to know what you need to know.

It is BOLD to make decisions knowing you don’t have all the information.

Find out more about how to Fast Track Your Business.

Harnessing The Power Of Modern Sales and Marketing - Mark Carpenter
Harnessing The Power Of Modern Sales and Marketing - John Gumas



Welcome. This is the bold business podcast. Your business has many directions to can travel, the one true direction of your company creates the journey for you to move toward a new exciting level. We call this the red direction. In today’s program, we delve into one idea. The idea will support you as you work on ever-present situations, including how to stay competitive in a changing market, how to break through the business plateau, and how to anticipate the changing expectations of your stakeholders. Jess Dewell is your guide. Jess brings you a 20-year track record of business excellence where strategy and operations overlap. your path comes from consistently working from the special place, your unique true north. Now here’s Jess.

Jess Dewell 00:51
Welcome to the Bold Business podcast, and you are here. You’re here today because you are seeking something. It might be inspiration. It might be the next way to attack. Think about chip away at. Maybe even just Find out if there is something that you are moving towards that you are unable to or that you are going forward with and you are seeking all the information possible. Regardless of why you’re here today, you know that you are here because there are stories to tell because there is stuff to do And more importantly than that, we must do it effectively, profitably, and most importantly, having fun along the way. Because without that last piece, all the rest is just hard work and hard work without a little bit of fun isn’t necessarily fulfilling, and it definitely doesn’t move toward our individual purposes, and it doesn’t help us make a difference in this world. So I brought two people together for you today Then we’re gonna be talking about modern sales and marketing. With that in mind, I better just introduce them because we gotta get them into this conversation as well. First, I’m going to introduce John Guumas. He is the CEO of Guumas, an award-winning full-service San Francisco advertising agency. He is the country’s foremost authority on Challenger Brand Marketing. I know we’re gonna be talking a little bit about today is Challenger Brand Marketing, which describes how Challenger brands effectively tell strategies to take on their larger competitors. John, I am so glad you are here today to be part of the Bold Business podcast.

John Gumas 02:26
I just so great to be here.

Jess Dewell 02:29
Mark is a serial storyteller. Mark Carpenter teaches people how to lead intentionally by telling stories that teach leads, sell, and inspire. He is the co-creator of the best-selling book and workshop, Master storytelling, how to turn your experiences into stories that teach lead and inspire. And I know you’re gonna hear about some of the things that are in that book as well. I am so glad to have you here today, Mark. Welcome.

Mark Carpenter 02:56
Jess, thank you so much. love being here with you and John and look forward to this conversation.

Jess Dewell 03:01
And those of you who already know me, awesome. I’m Jess. Those of you who don’t welcome your in for a treat, This is the Bold Business podcast you can listen to us on any of your favorite podcast platforms. And don’t forget, There are show notes and additional resources from our guests as additional information that will support you in this particular conversation and other information that you may be seeking at reddirection.com. Okay. Gentlemen, here, Wing. Go. Are you ready?

Mark Carpenter 03:30
I was ready for you to say, gentlemen, start your engines. I was just happy to be called gentlemen. Hey. That’s it.

Jess Dewell 03:36
Okay. I know we’re gonna have too much fun. This tide is gonna go by way too fast. As we start all panel discussions, for those of you who are visiting and listening for the first time, We’re going to have a question, and you’re going to get to hear John and Mark answer this question, and then we’re gonna talk about it and see what comes out of their answers and what comes up because of their answers. So with that in mind, I want to ask you a question, John. John, how can sales and marketing teams effectively adapt strategy to the changing customer behaviors and preferences?

John Gumas 04:10
Things are changing so quickly nowadays. Our job is to really help companies do exactly that. But the one thing that I would say we see on a regular basis that, that maybe companies miss the mark when it comes to that is they assume they know a exactly what their customers need to hear them say. They assume they know what their messaging needs to be They guess at the tactical elements they’d feel that their marketing and their sales strategies need to take, they guess. when it comes to challenger brand marketing, the most critical, scary, expensive thing a company can do is guess because when you guess, you’re you’re typically not right. And it’s so easy for companies to do fall into a trap of truly thinking they know that the answer to that question. What typically happens, business owners, c-suite individuals, marketing people, salespeople, They’ve been doing what they’ve been doing for so long. They know their company so well, and they can articulate it so well. But what they need to do is articulate it to someone who, who’s never heard of their company before. To start a conversation, we believe you have 7 seconds to do that. if you’re gonna further the conversation. You really need to take the time to step back and truly understand what it is you need to stay. to someone to pique their interest and get them to further a conversation with you. And if you guess at what you think that is, I’ll pretty much bet you a dollar right now, Jess, that you’re not on. And in the world of challenger brain marketing, you have to be you could be off just a little bit and it won’t work. You really have to be exact. There’s every single dollar that you spend needs to generate a return. And the only way you’re gonna do that is if your messaging is perfectly connected with what your audience needs to hear you say.

Jess Dewell 06:04
Thank you for that. Okay, Mark. Mark, I wanna know how can sales and marketing teams affect actively adapt their strategies to the changing customer behaviors and preferences?

Mark Carpenter 06:15
Love what John said too that, you know, we live in a world where we are constantly changing. And business isn’t what it used to be. John’s got baseballs behind him there in the background, so I’m gonna harken back to a a baseball movie from couple a few decades ago. Field of Dreams and that standard line of if you build it, they will come. People think that about their products and services. If I just build it, people will come. That’s a commodity-based thinking, and we live in a world where most of what we’re selling to people are solutions. ideas. And so it’s more service-oriented than it is product-oriented. If you’re selling toothpicks or something like that, I guess you can still compete on price and quality and distribution. But when you’re sewing solutions, you have to be able to connect to people. people buy from companies and people that they know trust and like. And so how do we build that connection? And to John’s point, we don’t wanna guess. We wanna do it in a way that’s very intentional. So I teach people to intentionally include with your description of what your products and services are to tell the story. Tell the story about how that connects to your customer. Tell the story about the transformation that they can make with your service or with your product. is going to lead them from where they are to where they want to be. Sometimes even to a place where they didn’t know that they wanted to be, but they do need to be. There’s a lot of science around this that shows that storytelling is a great way to connect people with people. There’s some brain research that shows what happens to people as they listen to a well-told story and how it connects us as a species And so if you want people to know trust and like you, be intentional about the stories that you tell that are based on real experience. I’m not talking about making up fantasies I’m talking about telling life-based experiences with the intent to teach lead sell and inspire. and that helps make connections with people. Because today, if you want to sell, you need to be able to connect with people.

You are listening to the Bold Business podcast. We will return to the show soon, But first, I wanna take a moment and give you a peek into what additional services and solutions you could access to fast track your business. This program was created to develop your capacity on demand by sharing insights, tips, as well as lessons learned by business leaders, unedited, and uncut. and we don’t just stop there. There are 3 additional benefits to help you reach your growth goals. You’ll also have unlimited access to 1, hearing tips and insights to develop yourself as a leader to get better results more often. 2, experiencing viewpoints from many different business leaders. 3, receiving frameworks to build core competencies and to more effectively focus on business growth and leadership. Altogether, the fast track of your business program will allow you to face uncertainty, anytime, anywhere. You can access what will become your most versed tool in your toolkit by going to fast track your business today.com. Now back to Jess.

Jess Dewell 09:36
So we know this place of connection is important. We know that every dollar that we spend matters. We know what we think we know, but we don’t know what we don’t know. And it’s amazing how much what we don’t know actually influences us. Right? And so start us into this dialogue and this conversation more of a roundtable-style is We know there’s a finite period of time. We know where we want to take people, whether they know or not. What is the most important thing before we even start? thinking about the story that influences the story or the connection that we tell.

Mark Carpenter 10:09
It’s really knowing what point you were going to make. To John’s point, you don’t wanna just guess. You, you don’t wanna just throw something out there, but you need to be intentional. and that’s a word that I use a lot is this intentionality that you, you need to, to be able to tell the story that says this is the point that I’m taking to. This is the journey I’m taking you on. A lot of times people hear storytelling and they think, oh, yeah. I’m a great storyteller. Right? Tell lots of story. I tell stories all the time. but they’re those wandering meandering stories that maybe are funny or maybe have a point, but maybe it’s not really clear what the point is. Another point that John made is we have a very limited time that we have to really make those connections with people. And so you don’t wanna tell a 10-minute story. We wanna get a fairly succinct story in there that makes that connection to people between us as human beings, but also between what we’re providing and what they need in their business.

John Gumas 11:08
I would add to that, Jess, as Mark is right on, when we start working with clients, they get one shot at being successful. they get one shot because they’re not big conglomerates that have just 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars that can try things. If it doesn’t work, we’ll try it again. Our clients aren’t like that. Our clients have to be very methodical, very systematic. When they start marketing, when they start programs, they work. How do we get to the point where we know it’s gonna work, which I think is the heart of your question, Jess? And Mark is is what he said. It’s it’s so right. It, it’s how you the story But to get to the point that we need to tell the right story where we’re saying the right words to the right people in the right way, We go through a process, and we have a very deliberate process to get us there. And, and we refer to it as discovery. There’s 5 total steps in our process, but the first one which is by far the most critical is the process of discovery, and that is where we’re learning. We’re learning what our customers need to hear. We’re learning what makes them tick. We’re learning what drives them. We’re learning what differentiates our clients from their competitors. The way we go about that is we do it through a series of interviews, and we give telephone interviews. Some of your younger listeners, Michael, telephone. What the heck is the telephone? But we, we do it on the telephone for a very specific reason because on a Zoom call, we could look at each other. So when I ask you a question, you may be influenced by me, just by looking at me. And as a result, you’re gonna tell me the answer you think I need to hear, or you can tell me the easy answer. The problem with that is that’s the worst thing you can do for me. The worst thing because that’s gonna take me down a path that is not true. It’s gonna take me down a path that’s not gonna help me create better marketing that’s gonna convince the marketplace to, to purchase. We speak to our customers through telephone interviews. We don’t need a lot of customers, but we ask them a series of very unconventional questions. really designed to pull out emotion because it’s the emotion. That’s the truth. You’re not gonna get questions. Like, do you like the product? Which one do you like better? The red one or the blue one? If you had a magic wand and could be questions that are just really thought-provoking. And what that does, it truly allows us to pull out the truth from these customers. Ultimately, what we’re trying to get to is what are the words we need to use that drive them to some sort of action. We do that with customers. We also do that with our clients and ask them similar questions because it’s amazing. And this is where we proved our clients, what you think your audience needs to hear is not what your audience needs to hear, and here’s the proof. because what you’re saying is very different from what your customers are saying. Then we have 1 third, a third leg in there, just the heck of it, and that is, analysis of their competitors. because you have to know what your competitive set is saying because you need to say something different. because if you’re all saying the same thing, at that point, it’s the person with the most money or the company with the most money that wins that. That’s how we get to that point where now we could start telling the story like Mark so eloquently described. Tell that story But in our client’s world, we need to be right. We need to make sure that we are actually saying what an audience needs to hear to drive them to an action that we want.

Mark Carpenter 14:24
And if I can just tag on to something that that John said there, you you’re you’re exactly right. We’re we’re following each other. You’re getting all that set up and the story’s gonna come that knowledge. So many times when people, particularly in emerging businesses, I talked to them about telling their story. They go, yeah. I, I’ll, I’ll tell my or I’ll tell my founding story, and the story becomes all about them. And the thing I teach people is the story is not about you. The story is about the lesson in the transformation that your audience needs to hear. And the research that John’s talking about is what’s going to get to What is that transformation that your customer needs to hear? That’s where the power comes in the story and the connection that it’s gonna make with people.

John Gumas 15:08
I’m gonna say 99% of the time. I’ll go and eliminate 100% of the time when we do this. What our clients think? their customers need to hear is not, is not what their customers need to hear to drive them to an action that we want. and usually that’s to buy something to engage some way or it, it’s just amazing how that happens is the focus soy gulf in their business and their organization that it’s impossible to step outside and look at their company from the outside in like a prospective new customer would. And that’s what you need to do because in the short period of time that you have to convince that person, to engage with you. You better know exactly what they need to hear, or you’re gonna be spending lots and lots of money for nothing. and it’s never gonna work. Your marketing is never gonna work at, you know, at a level that you want it to work.

Jess Dewell 16:01
So how do you identify when you’re in your own way? And what do you do about it?

John Gumas 16:05
I’ll take a crack at that. We as humans have this tendency to assume we know and to assume everyone has same, same or similar thoughts as you. And it, it’s such a natural, normal thing to happen, and you have to as a, business executive as a business owner as a, as an influencer within your company. Understand that you really need. You step back and look at things objectively. When especially when it comes to decisions, especially when it comes to marketing decisions, and it’s not always what you assume it is. In fact, I would say most of the time, it’s not what you assume it is. And where we see most companies never hit their stride in terms of marketing specifically marketing ROI is because of that. You really just have to question yourself. And most times when you do question yourself, you see a different perspective and you may see a perspective that is, is truly game-changing. And I can give you example after example of clients that we’ve taken this through where there have been game-changing moments during this discovery process that has made the all the difference in the world changing from an okay business to a phenomenally profitable and successful business, all because of just that.

Mark Carpenter 17:21
What Chip and Dan Heath in the book made to stick called the curse of knowledge. I know these things, and so I assume that everybody else knows them too. And so when I explain things from my first I assume people will understand it with the same perspective that I have. So we have to intentionally find ways to get out of our own perspective and go to other people. And John’s process there, he’s talking about ask questions. You’ve got to ask people questions and don’t assume that what’s in my head is gonna be in what was other people’s heads at the same time. And, again, that’s From the storytelling perspective, that intentionality of saying this isn’t about me. This isn’t about what I know. This is about what they need. And that’s the thing that can help us take a long story and edit it down to a short story because we’re gonna get to the essence of other people actually need. We only do that by doing the hard work of asking and finding out and getting other perspectives other than our own.

Jess Dewell 18:26
It takes too much time. There’s gotta be a fence for Whitney.

John Gumas 18:30
Mark Twain has the greatest quote. My favorite quote of all time, and he said, I would have written you a shorter note, but I did not have the time.

Mark Carpenter 18:41
One of my favorites too. I’ll tell you, Jess. My response to that is, oh, okay. So you have time later to go back and do it again.

Jess Dewell 18:49
Oh, I know. Don’t get me wrong. We’re all in the same wire here.

Mark Carpenter 18:53
So that’s the challenge question that I threw out. Exactly. I don’t have time to do all this. It’s, oh, okay. So you have time later to go back and redo it and, and fix it and, and do it again and waste the time that you think is gonna be productive by not taking the time upfront.

John Gumas 19:08
And the money and all the money you’ve invested.

Jess Dewell 19:12
Have you been able then yourselves to change your relationship with time to either make time or accept that time is gonna be what it is?

Mark Carpenter 19:26
I think that’s a constant struggle. At least it is for me. but I do have that grounding reality of and and this is something that David Allen says. David Allen is the author of about getting things done. and I’m, but a follower and a fan of him. And he said, you can do anything. Can’t do everything. And, and that’s just a reality. And so we have to conscious about, okay, how am I gonna use the time that I do have along with the energy that I do have, the resources that I do have, and what’s gonna be the best use of that, not just for right now, but for long term.

Jess Dewell 20:01

Mark Carpenter 20:01
And so it’s getting out of that moment too where in the moment something probably feels really getting on that and saying, alright. What’s better long-term use of my time in this moment?

John Gumas 20:13
I would agree with Mark and I, I would just add to that is, is be realistic with yourself as to what you actually can accomplish. Where you, you set out to do something and you realize, well, that’s just a massive task. Maybe what I need to do is step back, can you reevaluate what it did I, I, I can’t accomplish or want to accomplish so I can actually accomplish something because it’s that satisfaction, that thrill of getting something accomplished that, that sets you up for the next task.

Mark Carpenter 20:39
John makes a great point with that. A lot of times, we look at something that we think is a task and it’s not a task. It’s a series of tasks. It’s a project. The for example, I I walked out into my garage recently, and I went I need to clean out the garage. And I think clean out the garage as as as a task. Clean out the garage isn’t a task. It’s a project. What I need to do is I need to go through these paint cans that are right over here and see if any of these are worthless now, and I need to take them down to the toxic waste recycling center. I I need to break that down into these small pieces. I need to go through this barrel of stuff over here and see if there’s anything I can throw away. Like, there’s individual pieces. And when we break things down into smaller component, That gives us the energy around, okay, this I can do right now. And then the big picture is what’s the direction it’s taking me? But then the individual breakdown of these are the tasks I need to do right now. That’s gonna give us the energy to jump into those things. I’ll just add a comment that a good friend of mine is, is made to me before. You said anytime you’re tackling a task, estimate how long you think it’s gonna take. If you’ve done it before, double that time estimate. If you’ve never done it before, triple it. and you’ll be about right. And I have actually found that to be very true. This is particularly around, like, tasks around the home. I, I had to change some ducting with my dryer vent. And I went, okay. I think this is gonna take about an hour for me to do, but I’ve never done it before. So I’m gonna give myself 3 hours. It took me about 2 hours 50 minutes. It it it is being realistic and being honest with yourself. about what does this really take? And am I the right person to do this, or should I hand it off to somebody else?

John Gumas 22:33
We don’t always delegate like we should. And, when it comes to a task, especially when entrepreneurs do this a lot, I can get it done myself faster by the time I explain it to somebody. That is always going to keep you limited. I think people that don’t delegate need to learn how to delegate, but they need to learn how to delegate properly. putting a team together to accomplish a project. It’s and assigning the right people to the right task, holding them responsible, creating timelines, doing those things. I, I, I think that’s a, a big part of learning how to delegate. I think that is a very critical skill to, to learn and understand and in how you do it in a way where the people you delegate to are actually looking forward to doing something for you because it’s the style in which you delegate. It’s the way you thank them. It’s the way you acknowledge them. I think a lot of business owners need to learn.

We’ll be back Jess and the bold business podcast shortly. You can fast track your business with on-demand information curated to help you build a resilient business that achieves its goals. But why? Why is it so important that you take the steps to invest in yourself and your leadership team with subscriptions to this program? We all need to save time and get relevant and trustworthy information when we want it. This program reduce your overwhelm and increase your opportunity with high-quality information on demand. This straightforward approach ensures this program answers the resources to help you work through complex challenges with exclusive articles, videos, podcasts, and access to ask us your business questions. you receive several benefits above and beyond what is available for free with a monthly subscription. To find out more, visit fast track today.com. And now let’s return to the bold business podcast.

Jess Dewell 24:41
Using the time and recognizing the value of that time used, which usually, unfortunately, gets relegated to motorcycle rides, showers, running. Right? It, it’s usually a product of when we’re not working, but if we made that a part of who we are and what we’re doing for our organizations, how does that change the game? Does it even change the game?

Mark Carpenter 25:02
I think it goes back to that intentionality and, and being intentional about how you use your time and being intentional about what the processes are that work for you. I, I have to be really intentional about getting up every morning and stretching. That’s of high value to me. My day is going to be better if I spend that time starting the day with some stretching. I know this. And sometimes I lie to myself and say, it’s not that important. But we lie loudest when we lie to ourselves. And, and so it understanding what our process is and intentionally building some of those times in there 2 out of that creative space, but we can’t have the creative space if our life’s out of control because those things will start tickling into our brain and interfering with the creative space. So whatever it is that you do need to do that, is it taking a walk, hiking in the mountains? Is it riding the motorcycle? Whatever that happens to be, put it put yourself in that space where you can open your mind up to those creative ideas.

John Gumas 26:05
No one is going to grow whether individually or their organization until they learn how to get more out of their time, how to maximize what they’re doing the, the hours in the day. If you allocate 8 hours a day, you got a few business people that do, but let’s just say for the sake of this conversation.

Jess Dewell 26:24
Like, you’re putting the ideal out there.

John Gumas 26:28
Let’s say you allocate 8 hours a day to your work life. How are you gonna maximize those 8 hours? What are you going to do to maximize it? And if you, if you think about that for a second, more and more you can get out of those 8 hours. The more you’re going to grow, the more success you’re going to have, at its simplest core, That’s what you have to do as an employee as a business owner, as a c level individual, as a marketing person, as a salesperson that goes on and on. the more you can figure out how to maximize your time and be more efficient with that time and recognize those little time sucks and recognize those things that kinda take you off task, the more you can, the more successful you will be. And that’s what we’ve all know successful individuals. They managed to get so much more done, right, in an 8-hour day than others. I think in its simplest form, that’s what we all need to look at.

Mark Carpenter 27:25
We started our conversation today talking about how do we adapt to changing customer behaviors and and preferences. And that even just goes to changes in in business preferences and and behaviors. I’m old enough that I remember that getting something overnight was like super fast, and you had to pay a lot of money to get something distributed overnight. We live in a world today where it’s why haven’t you responded to me immediately to this, text message that I just sent you. And that is one of those things that I think John is talking about where we get our time sucked away in this latest and loudest environment. The somebody says, Hey, I need you to look at this. And we don’t stop to say, does it have to be right now, or can I get back to you later? What’s your real time frame on this? And we start assuming that everything has to be immediate. And if so if we’re not intentional about saying, no. That’s the most important thing for me to work on right now. I’m gonna set that aside. We get sucked into that latest in Lattice. We’re busy in that 8 hours of data that we’ve allocated for our business. But at the end of the day, we feel like maybe we haven’t accomplished that much. And so when you’re having those times, you’re saying, no. This is my creative time. You need to block all those other things out too, or you end up responding to the latest and loudest rather than the most important.

Jess Dewell 28:47
What are effective ways to create a feedback loop with the people that are actually doing the execution of our sales and marketing strategy?

John Gumas 28:55
And I’m gonna answer it from a branding and marketing perspective. When we’re out doing marketing programs for clients, we identify 3 specific target audiences. k. The first is the most obvious that everyone thinks marketing spend. That’s what we refer refer to as acquisition. Right? That’s generating new client. How do you get new clients? How do you get them in? How do you convince them? How do you create the right messaging that we’ve been talking about? That doesn’t assume. Doesn’t guess. It says exactly what your, your target needs to hear and you say it in a way that’s unique to, to anyone else in in the marketplace, sir, acquisition. The second is retention. And now you have customers. How do you make sure they don’t leave you? How do you make sure your competitors don’t convince them that they have a better and a better way of doing things? How do you stay in front of them to make sure that they always know that they’ve made the right decision? And the third audience, which I which isn’t believed to your point, Jess, is we refer to it as the internal audience. Everyone within your organization needs to know who you stand for, what your, your marketing essence is brand essence. What’s your elevator pitch? What’s your vision statement, positioning statement? They need to know all of that because they are on the front lines. and what we see many eyes with companies and is the folks on the front line, the sales teams that Do they even have receptionists anymore? I don’t know. They said he the the folks on the front line. Right? Yeah. What, what, what did they say to customers? is not what the company is saying or what the company stands for. So it’s really important that organizations keep everyone within their internal organization formed and, and aligned, especially when it comes to the message. Because then People aren’t saying different things because you cannot be a successful company until everyone inside your organization is saying the same thing in the same way. And until you do that, you’re gonna have there’s gonna be you’re gonna have a hard time because the market will be confused. So those are the 3 audiences that, that most organizations need to look at and, and create messaging towards to keep them informed and keep them linked together.

Mark Carpenter 31:10
And tying into, especially what you’re saying about that internal audience. A, a lot of times, we get a little vague about what we say to them. Like, say things like, customers first to show customers that, that how, how much you value them. The 3 of us sitting here could hit that and interpret that 3 different ways. And so we need to turn the words on the wall into behaviors in the hall. What does that actually look like? And, honestly, I teach this all the time that storytelling is one of the great ways to do that. Tell the story of what that looks like. If we have a value around customer service, tell the story of somebody that demonstrated that value and what were the behaviors they specifically did so that everybody else to John’s point, can get on the same page and say, ah, this is what we mean when we’re saying we value customer service. What does it actually look like? And, and that story that you tell can paint that picture so that people can be on the same page. And then the other thing is it goes back to that intentionality and just building in intentional feedback loops. Don’t expect people to just come to you and share what they’re doing or come to you when they get off track. You need to build that in as an intentional part of your process to make sure that you are on the track. And, and again, get them to tell their stories about, okay, why did this succeed with this customer? Why did this succeed in this acquisition? I’ll go back to, to, to John’s 3 types of, of audiences. Why did this succeed with this acquisition? Why did this 6 succeed in this retention? Or where did this go wrong in this acquisition? Then we can course correct a little. but we have to be intentional about getting those feedback loops in there. That doesn’t have to take a lot of time if you’re doing it consistently and on a regular basis. Do people will start processing that as this is something I need to remember because I know I’m gonna be expected to share it?

John Gumas 33:08
So we have clients coming up and say, oh, yeah. I’m running these social media campaigns. I’m running advertising campaigns, and they’re not working. They’re it’s just not delivering what we want. And so when we do our analysis, we look at what we talked about in messaging and how you can’t guess at the messaging. But the other thing we’re seeing, and this goes to all of us, either 3 of us, all of your listeners, We as human beings, as consumers, are so smart. We’re so educated We’re so knowledgeable about what our options are is we do not wanna be sold to. So the moment any marketer or any individual for that matter tries to sell us something is the moment we stand back and go, oh, wait a minute. don’t know if I believe you, I don’t trust you. You’re trying to sell me something. I so the new form of messaging slash marketing and branding is this concept of How do you sell without selling? I think that’s a very important concept in today’s world because that’s a phenomena we’re seeing just in the last couple 3 years. and it’s getting more and more. So it is so how do you sell without selling? And that’s where this concept of thought leadership comes in education telling the market, telling your customers your prospective customers, educate them on why they need something. And in that becomes the master’s storytelling part is how you craft in. You’re the best solution, but you have to be careful not to sell. the hard sell. Markey might remember you, and I remember the old car dealers. Right? Were they riding on the horse or on the elephant and bring your wife, bring your pink slip. I made the best deal. That doesn’t work anymore. That doesn’t work, and marketers have to be really careful, and salespeople have to be really careful There’s a time and place for the cell. There’s a time and place for the call to action, but it’s not at the beginning. It’s probably not even within the 1st 50% or 60% of the sales process. It’s about creating a trust. It’s about creating thought leadership. It’s about being the expert. It’s about creating confidence or developing confidence in the person you’re talking to that that you have some knowledge or you have a product that is really good that I need but you’re not selling it to me. I’m gonna make my own decision. But as good marketers, as good salespeople, you help them make the decision based on to fax the information because you’ve done your research. You’ve done the discovery. Right? You know why they make their decision. You’re gonna arm them the knowledge they need to make that decision in your favor. So that’s a big adjustment that, that we’re seeing. And when companies do it right, it, it just works phenomenally well.

Mark Carpenter 35:51
That thought leadership aspect. It’s, again, it’s getting them the facts and figures the information, but it’s couching it in the story in the way that it builds that no trust and life factor. Because, again, that’s who people buy They buy — Exactly. — people in organizations, they trust in law. And the thought leadership, I, I think you’re right on, John. Thought leadership builds that really strong, really well.

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Jess Dewell 36:47
Hey. You bold business listeners. Guess what? Now you know why Mark Carpenter is here? Now you know why John Goomis is here? And just in case you forgot, this is the Bold Business Podcast, and we’re gonna keep talking about the importance of storytelling, the importance of discovery and knowing who and what and why you’re saying what you’re saying. And we are going to just continue. It seems to be taking people by surprise. And so I think we can remove the element of being taken by surprise for a couple of reasons. 1, you’re both here saying it. So smart people listening to this program are going to go, oh, yeah. Okay. I better just if I’m not doing this, I better just face it and accept this as a reality. And then so now what can I do? That’s what our smart listeners are gonna do. Our second group of listeners are also smart, and they’re gonna be like, I am so busy. So I have all of this stuff already. So my question to you before the that group of people are going to be so how can I evaluate what I’m doing to get rid of something so that I can start doing this important work to find the pulse because that’s ultimately what I’m hearing you say is We’ve gotta have the pulse and keep it after we found it.

Mark Carpenter 38:02
Yeah. And I, I think the first thing is what you just said is knowing that pulse, knowing what is your purpose, what is your mission. I think a lot of times, particularly businesses have been, been maybe cruising along and being successful. And then they hit a bump in the road, and they’re like, oh, but we’ve been successful, so let’s keep doing what we’re doing. And, and they don’t make the shift. And they don’t make the shift based on What is our purpose? What is our overarching purpose that are that we’re providing or the value proposition that we’re providing to people And what can we do to continue to serve that purpose? And so you end up doing a lot of activities that are activities, but do they actually serve your purpose and the needs that your customers have? So that’s the first thing that I look at in terms of what can I take out of my life is does this serve the purpose that I’m trying to fulfill?

John Gumas 38:53
Yeah. I mean, I, I would add add to what Mark said is If somebody told me once when I was a young man, which is just a couple years ago, I was a young man, said to me, he says, you’re in a, you’re in a hurry to go nowhere. And that was one of the most impactful things anybody ever said to me. And that was I was running around. I was doing like, aunt. He’s like, where are you going? What’s your plan? What’s your strategy? Have you noticed that the game has changed around you? But you’re so busy. And that’s what tends to happen. You get so caught up in your day-to-day life that you don’t have a chance to step back. and look at the forest, look at where you’re going, look what’s happening, but you have to. Industries change. And to me, the greatest example is like the taxi industry. the taxi industry didn’t hear what was going on around them. Didn’t listen to their customers. Didn’t see the technology that was coming in. Then what happened? It opened the door for companies like Uber And Lyft to literally change their industry, and there’s many examples of that. truly have to step back. If you’re driving from San Francisco to New York, you don’t just get in your car and start driving that way. You take a map out, although now it’s GPS, so assume we don’t have a GPS. It just ruins my old story.

Jess Dewell 40:07
We have no cell phone coverage, and we happen to have a breakdown with whatever built into the vehicle.

John Gumas 40:14
There you go. So, you know, you have to map out where you’re gonna go. And, essentially, when you’re gonna get there so you can how much gas I’m gonna need or how much charge on my electric vehicle. The point is you have to plan and planning makes it so much more a effective, and it’s so much, you know, a smarter use of your time. And we talked about how you get more hours of the day. That’s one way of doing it. is literally have a a plan, a strategy, and a goal where you’re gonna be when so you can get there. In in our world, we believe marketing is a business-building tool, but it works backwards. I where do we want this company to go? Where do we wanna be a year from now? 3 years from now, 5 years from now. And then your marketing and your messaging and all that is built to get you there. It’s not built just to market. Yeah. I wanna spend a lot of money and throw it into all sorts of marketing things. No. That’s not why you do it. You do it to accomplish specific goals. and not everybody always takes the time to just it’s like the discovery. Right? Take the time by investing a little time upfront you’re gonna save so much time in on the path, and you’re gonna save so much money through the journey that it’s just it’s when you look back and go, wow, that was that was so worth it.

Mark Carpenter 41:31
And, and Jess, I think one of the things that gets in the way of us doing exactly what John’s talking about is that we’ve created this culture where busyness is a badge of honor. How many times do people say to you? Are you really busy, or, oh, yeah, I’m so busy. I’m busier than I’ve ever been. Busyness becomes a badge of honor for us But is it the busy doing the right things to to John’s point? years ago, I I was back when I was working for an organization instead of for myself, I was sitting in my office, and I was thinking about something that I needed to shift on my team. And, and it was something that just took some thought process. And I’d made a couple of notes to myself, and I was just sitting there like this thinking about it. And I’m just sitting there like this, and our one of our senior executives walks by pokes his head in and goes, hot hotcha. I said, what do you mean? I caught you not working. I said, no. I’m working. I’m thinking through a problem. He goes, look, I don’t pay you to to think. I did. I pay you to do stuff. Start doing stuff. And, and I think that’s an old business philosophy that some people still get stuck in that I just gotta be doing, and so we don’t take the time to be more intentional about what we’re doing and how we’re using our time.

Jess Dewell 42:49
What I see is that anytime we have an outsourced group that supports a small department, or that replaces a department is where we get that. I think the strongest callback. What are you doing for what I’m paying you? And that is something that I recognize is one of the places I see. We can’t get past the old into this new of Our work looks different than just what we can produce or show in a sheet in some sort of report. And it’s true. It takes time to create a story. It takes time to find the story. It takes time to understand what are we assuming so we can figure out truly without judgment and without avail of that knowledge thing that you were saying earlier, Mark, to actually get to where we need to go to get out of our own way. And so my question to you is how do we know that we can — believe that the work is being done even if it looks different today because it might be geography is different. Right? We get to work remote way more than we did before. people are embracing that at a whole new level and trying to figure that out as one example. So I would be curious on that front. How do we change that The way work looks and that thinking is a requirement now versus just the output of a task.

John Gumas 44:11
I could tell you what we do. When we start working with the company, the first step is discovery. And then from that discovery, we develop the messaging and the strategy. And then after then we implement the marketing campaigns. So they’ll hire us and we’ll have our initial meetings and then they won’t see us for about a month. And but what’s happening during that month, right, or so or month and a half? We’re interviewing customers. We’re interviewing them. We’re researching. We’re doing all these things that they don’t see because we’re not sitting at a desk in their office, which actually is a good thing because this way we’re not influenced at all. and there’s a value to companies having an external, different, new, fresh viewpoint that is incredibly valuable So you get back to your original question. What we try to do to alleviate that is is we inform and educate our clients as to the process. Here’s what’s going to be happening. Here’s what we’re gonna be doing during this time so they know. The more you can inform, the more you can educate, the more he people up to date what you are doing. And, yes, to Mark’s point, yes, I’m actually thinking. I’m not sleeping. I’m faking. That’s a very important part of business that thinking thing really important. Anyway, it’s keeping folks informed and include them in the process. I think that helps a lot.

Mark Carpenter 45:31
Have you ever been on a flight? You’re traveling business or personal, and the flight gets delayed. If you ever traveled, you’d probably been in that situation. Right?

John Gumas 45:43
Ever to people. I’ve heard of people that has had happened to. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Carpenter 45:48
When that happens, what is the worst thing that the airline can do?

John Gumas 45:54
Not communicate.

Mark Carpenter 45:55
Say nothing. So, yeah, exactly to your point, John. Because I’ve had that happen where we were supposed to take off 10 minutes ago, and you’re saying flight been delayed, hang tight. What’s going on? Do I need to do something different? Do I need to finding an alternative way to get to where I’m going? The times that I’m less frustrated in those moment are when they say, here’s the situation. Here’s what’s keeping us on the and this is what we’re doing to work on it. People can give you some grace if they know what’s going on. But without that, they’re left to create their own vision of what’s happening and it’s usually the most negative possible conclusion that they’re gonna come to. Don’t let people make those assumptions. Tell them what’s going on.

Jess Dewell 46:45
Each of us has and every company who’s listening and all of your clients. They each have the way that they determine how profitable they are. Right? Whatever their metric is and how they’re making decisions around their profitability. And the things that we’ve been talking about today Directly impact that yet. It’s the thoughts and the dialogue and the questions that we’re asking to whether or not we’re truly optimizing whatever that equation is for our individual company. And that’s really what I’m taking away because it comes down to the marketing piece, whether it’s our position in the market, understanding that even if we’re choosing not to compete, I hear this in the size of companies where everybody has a piece of the pie. And I’m like, sure. Everybody does today. You got that piece today. What you’re gonna do to keep it? If your goal is to grow it, it’s gotta come from somewhere. There’s only so much that we can do. Right? And so when we think about things like that and we’re thinking about those types of decisions, what have you found that comes from the work that you’re doing that has helped indirectly get to the direct place of more of what they want. profit, sustainability, infrastructure, whatever that goal is of theirs, and then for the current 2 to 5 year period of going forward.

John Gumas 48:04
I’ll give you an actual example. I’m not gonna use the name of the client we had, but it was a a a company that was in the medical device arena. and they were the leaders. And business was going really well. Their product was high quality, and they sold it cheap to therapists of different, you know, types within medical facilities and things are going great. And, again, really high quality, higher end, in fact, the most expensive product on the market. So they’re moving along. Things are going great. All of a sudden, a competitor pops in a new competitor. They’re a foreign company, and now they’re offering this what they call the same product for 50% less. They weren’t a client at that time, but their sales start to plummet because the foreign company did a great job of convincing all of their customers why are you paying twice as much for something that you could buy for for half the price? So they brought us in at that point. What’s going on? We’re we don’t know what’s happening. So we take them through this discovery process that led to their strategy that led to their marketing program. And When we spoke to our clients during this process, they all were convinced that the reason why people bought their product. It was because of the technology was great. The technology was great. The products were great. The, the way we built it was great. We built it in America. That was great. So we talk to their customers, and we found something very different when we talk to their customers. Their customers use their product because it gave them peace of mind to know that when they use this on a patient, that patient was gonna get better. They also realized that, you know, if they can see 3 patients an hour using our client’s device with the other device, they would have to see you know, you see one patient an because they had to be there to administer it. Anyway, long, long story short. Here is a company I had been in business many years, we convince them that people are not buying your product because of the quality of ingredients. Those are things you just assume are gonna be there. It’s not it’s like a restaurant. Right? You get a restaurant that say, hey. Our food is fresh. Don’t you assume that when you go into a restaurant? That the food is fresh. You don’t have to tell me that. I’m gonna assume that. You gotta tell me why you’re different. digress. Let me go back to the story. So we created this whole messaging and strategy and brand around, it matters. What you use on your patients matter. The quality of their life matters. They as individuals matter. You as individuals matter. So they shifted their position. They shifted their whole marketing and messaging strategy from 1 of technology to 1 of of emotion and people and how they make a difference in lives. Well, you know what happened? Their sales and and I you’re you’re we’re plummeting. There’s a you at the bottom, and it starts going up because all of a sudden everyone that they were selling to understood why. Understood why I’m paying twice as much from this product and understood that it’s probably worth more than that. and they understood that the competitive product did not deliver what this company was delivering. But the competitive folks were smart because they went head to head against our coordinate based on that technology. They’re saying, we have same technology. We have and that’s ease that we set, and no one’s gonna be hard for anyone to argue that. But if he turned it into an emotional message, it again, it made the difference. And this is a company that would probably have been out of business today. if they didn’t go through that process, understand. Now they’re back at number 1 that the competitor, I believe, is out of business, and they are the happiest people around. because there are setting sales records every year because of just a simple messaging change and understanding what the true reason why and their customers bought their product. And what they thought was not accurate.

Mark Carpenter 52:06
Thank you for proving the power of story. in two different ways. Number 1, the story you just told made that point great, but that client didn’t know what the story of transformation was that their customers needed. And once they knew what that story was and could convey that story in a nice, concise way, All of a sudden, it starts turning things around. And all of a sudden, these customers that are fleeing based on price are like, nope. I’m not sure I trust that one as much. but I know trust and like these people, I’ll spend the extra money.

John Gumas 52:41
Exactly right, Mark. Exactly right.

Jess Dewell 52:44
Okay. I wanna know, Mark, what makes it bold to be able to effectively adapt sales and marketing strategies today?

Mark Carpenter 52:53
Part of the boldness is just trying something different. It’s just stepping out there is getting out of the we’ve always done it this way. And I, I, I teach this all the time in, in terms of leadership. We’re we’re still trying to get a mindset set in leadership where we’re leading, like, people not positioned. because we’ve had leaders in the past who have led by, I’m the one in charge. You do what I say, and this is what we could do, and this is how you do it. The workplace. The environment that we work in is not conducive to that anymore. It’s bold to step out and say, you know what? I’m gonna lead with more compassion. I’m not gonna leave like a position. I’m gonna leave like a person. I’m gonna leave with more compassion, but it takes boldness because it’s different than what we’ve seen before. It takes boldness to do what John’s talking about and not assume that what I’ve got in my mind and what I know about my company and my product and my service. is the right way to market it, but I need to get into the heads of my customers and to see what they’re thinking. It’s bold because you’re stepping out and doing something different. But taking those steps and the proven steps that we have are going to lead us to much better results than we’ve had in the past.

Jess Dewell 54:05
John, what makes it bold to be able to effectively adapt marketing and sales strategies for what shows up in your business today?

John Gumas 54:12
Don’t be scared to change because the world around you is changing and successful companies literally change every day every week, every month, every year to adapt with that change. Do not get do not assume because chances are you’re probably gonna be incorrect and you just need to be incorrect by a little bit to to not achieve the full objectives. you go through a process that we described, the discovery process, learn about what your customers really need to hear you say. Then when it comes to that, say something that no one else is saying. Position yourself in a way that nobody else is doing. You wanna own a niche. You wanna own a message that nobody else has. and one that you can defend against anybody. And that doesn’t happen by accident. You learn that. And just make sure when you do that, it is relevant to your audience. So if it is the the relevance will come when you do your research and you do the discovery, but please don’t move forward with any sort of marketing or sales activity without knowing that because it can take you down the wrong path for certainly you will never achieve the results that you’re hoping to achieve without knowing that information first.

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