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Starting the conversation:
Clearly connecting goals with results is what makes a successful company a high-achieving organization. Steven Gaffney, CEO at Steven Gaffney Company, shares why it is important to be all-in to fully tap into your team’s maximum potential.
Your framework for tracking progress is how you direct energy for tangible results. To harness your team’s potential, knowing their capabilities, experience, and limitations drive group dynamics and reveal what it takes to optimize working together at an elite level. Every individual is open to stepping out of their comfort zones and challenging assumptions.
In this program, you will hear how to connect your goals to measurable results, three ways to leverage internal disruption, and how to grasp the true potential of achievement your team. Jess Dewell talks with Steven Gaffney, CEO at Steven Gaffney Company, about the importance of becoming a high-achieving organization — especially since leaders are judged on their results.
Host: Jess Dewell
Guest: Steven Gaffney
What You Will Hear:
1:20 High achievement focuses on potential.
- It is possible to enjoy the process AND reach your biggest organizational goals.
- It takes guts to get the unsaid said.
- Your goals can be massive.
4:30 Blame yourself first.
- Take responsibility for what has been said and done.
- Control what you can control.
- Use experience to figure out how to grow.
- The greatest leaders we know blamed themselves first.
8:50 There is power in compartmentalization.
- Not everything needs to be dealt with in the moment.
- Step away from the situation and get it out of your head onto paper.
- There are differences between what we notice and what we imagine.
- Three ways to work with (maybe even prompt) internal disruption.
19:10 When we are in a good mood we are smarter.
- The way you work together evolves as relationships do.
- Fear has a ceiling — and results will reflect this.
24:35 You can quantify what your organization potential is.
- Your comfort with the high level of ambiguity around decision-making.
- Conditions can be an asset, you know what you must work with and what you can influence.
- When confronted with a limit, respond with: “I understand.”
35:30 The real opportunity of taking time for self-reflection.
37:50 High achievers don’t live by the limitations of time, they choose how to spend their time.
- You define who you are and what you do.
- You seek out and test the constraints faced to determine if they are influenceable (or not).
- How to prioritize is always a choice.
42:00 It is BOLD to be committed to becoming a high-achieving company.
Resources
- National Study on Consistently High-Achieving Teams
- Leading Through Change, Steven Gaffney, CEO at Steven Gaffney Company
Transcript
Steven Gaffney 00:00
And, inevitably, what they discover is they don’t have a lot of facts on the situation. Mostly what people are sharing is a whole bunch of opinions.
Jess Dewell 00:07
The whole history with all of the things have to be said before you can go. And I’m like, why are we setting this up for failure?
Jess Dewell 00:19
I’m so glad you’re here. Thanks for stopping by. At the Bold Business Podcast, we are normalizing important conversations. Yes. There are tips. Yes. There are ways to solve problems. More importantly are gonna be what do you need for yourself to be able to solve those problems and make the most of the education, the training, and the programs that you are already using? This is a supplement to that. It can sit on top of it, fuel your soul, fuel your mind, and most importantly, regardless of where you’re at on your journey, maybe you’re starting out. Maybe you’re ready to scale. Maybe you’re going through a reinvention. The conversations we are having will help you at each of those stages. So hang around, see what’s going on, and I look forward to seeing you engaging with our videos.
Announcer 01:10
Wow. You are listening to the Bold Business Podcast Hey. Where you will hear firsthand experiences about what it really takes to ensure market relevance and your company’s future.
Jess Dewell 01:23
This is the Bold Business Podcast, and I’m talking to Steven Gaffney today. He is an expert on creating consistently high-achieving organizations, and he has been doing this for almost 30 years. Not only is, has he done this extensively and seen taking ideas, putting the information we need around him, getting the data that we need, the result indicators that we know we’re on the right track to get to this more than expected outcome. He is good at that. He’s done it across all industries. Change leadership is his specialization. Honest communication underlines everything that he does. This innovation, this consistency is what makes what he does successful because he’s leveraging cross-discipline solutions from across all of the industries that he’s working to help you and yours. He’s an accomplished author, keynote speaker, trusted advisor to many of the world’s most influential organizations. He consistently and regularly works with Fortune 500 Companies and the government in the US and the military. So here’s the deal. That’s cool. He’s awesome. He’s got a track record. What are we gonna talk about? We’re gonna be talking about things like, how do you connect your results with your goals, and know that you’re gonna have a great outcome. He gives us 3 questions to have intentional disruption in a conversation to stop and keep going because sometimes we need that. Actually maybe a lot of time we need that. It depends on who we are and what the situation is. Ebbs and flows there. And we talk a lot about how can we know, how do we know, and what can we do to understand what our true potential is so that we can also consistently high-achieve to reach our goals. I’m excited. Have fun with this conversation. In my research, potential seems to be a core element of what you’re working with. And so I wanna know, Steven, what made you decide to tap into potential for working together, growing together, succeeding together?
Steven Gaffney 03:44
Well, I don’t know if potential is where I ultimately am a lead with, but what I do know is everything is about high achievement. Because when it’s all said and done, that’s what we’re paid to do, and that’s what we’re measured about. And people might say, are you only concerned with the results? Well, ultimately, for example, when I’m working with my clients, I’m concerned about the results they want. But what’s great is to go along the way and enjoy life. So we wanna enjoy the, the, you know, the marathon, so to speak. Wanna enjoy the process. But, ultimately, what we are accountable for is achievement. And I think that sometimes that’s get lost with an education, in business, and whatever. It’s all kinds of ways it’s that way. You know? It’s so let, let me give you a specific example.
Jess Dewell 04:27
I’m ready.
Steven Gaffney 04:27
Go, call me, and they said about handling handling diversity. And I said, yes. We do. And we, but we don’t handle that directly. We handle many tools that create getting the unsaid set, having people have great conversations, resolving issues, and actually working with all kinds of different personalities, diversity of thought, or whatever the case may be. And then he went on to explain about the pressures that he was receiving around making sure that his workforce was diverse. I said, that’s excellent. I said, and remember, ultimately, what you’re gonna be judged by is the results of the company. So connect diversity with results, and you’re gonna do great. And I have worked with HR folks and even DEI and other and stuff like that. And, ultimately, what’s measured is the results that we’re trying to produce. But here’s the interesting thing. When I said to him is, how would you know if you had a diverse workforce? He didn’t have an answer. In other words, he had that as a concept, as an intention, but didn’t know specifically what that translated. And he said to me, that’s a really good question. And so it’s hard to achieve something unless we know the results we’re trying to go for. And in the end, we are judged by the results we produce, whether people like it or not. It’s the results.
Jess Dewell 05:39
Are people surprised when they’re not getting the results that they thought they were gonna get?
Steven Gaffney 05:44
What I often see are several types of responses. Some people blame others. Some people blame themself, and some people look for the root cause, which may be a blend of that. But, ultimately, if I had to say where to go with this, it’s it’s obviously, we need to look at the root cause. But here’s what I do notice. All great leaders blame themselves first. Poor leaders blame others first. People might say, you know, I don’t like the word blame. I’m like, okay. Switch out the word. Taking responsibility, whatever the case may be. But in saying, I’ve worked with some of the best CEOs, admirals, and generals. And as you know, from my bio, we work with some of the US military. We work with some of the top, national labs, some of the best companies, gold mining industry, the hospitality industry, some of the top companies in the world. And I’ve had the opportunity and been blessed to work with some of the greatest leaders. The best ones when faced with a problem, they look at themselves first. What did I not do? What, what can I do differently in the future? The ones that don’t tend to last and don’t produce results are the ones that look at other people first and blame others. So that may sound like, okay. I kinda got it, but how about this? When the economy is not going that your way, when there’s a market trend that’s gone differently, when there’s a product that you thought and you put all a lot of resources in and didn’t wind up producing results. Where, where’s your instincts? To look at others or to look at yourself first? And there’s a strategic reason why I’ve noticed and why great leaders look at themselves first. And that is because if you blame yourself first, it puts you in the driver’s seat to fix it. If I blame other people for my problems, I actually lose control of my ability to deal with it. But if I look at what how I might be causing the matter, it gets me in the driver’s seat of my life to be able to make choices. So it’s to our strategic advantage to look at ourself first, whether we’re faced with a business problem or a personal problem. Look at ourself first.
Jess Dewell 07:44
So do you have an example of a time where you wait, what?
Steven Gaffney 07:48
I’ll give a really humorous one when I started, although there’s many I could choose from. I, I went about a year into me speaking, and and I started with doing the self on honest communication. I had a lot of beginners luck. And so about a year into it, I remember I’d give a a session for a breakout. It was a breakout session at a, at a conference, and I was so bad. I was so bad that the 2-hour summit, it was a 2-hour session, and half the people left before the end of the session. And and and Jess they did not wait for, me to turn my back. They just left.
Jess Dewell 08:22
They just left?
Steven Gaffney 08:22
So yelled out, and they felt sorry for me. So I’m normal. I, I went home and I thought, oh my gosh. I’m in the wrong profession. I’m a big loser. What am I gonna do? And then, you know, I talked to friends, and friends are kind of interesting because they, they’ll help you blame other people. They’ll say, you know, not every audience is the right way and maybe had an off day, and they didn’t set you up right. How was the description of the session? I’m like, no. No. No. Instinctively, I knew I was the cause of the matter. So after I stopped feeling sorry for my self after a few days and it’s silly. I felt so bad. I, I went to my client, and I tried to give the money back. I mean, that’s how embarrassed I was. She didn’t take it, and she said, no. It wasn’t that bad, but I really thought it and it was really bad. And then I realized that and I looked at why why did I have these problems? What, what was the cause? And it’s because I, it turned out I didn’t know how to manage group dynamics, and I could get more into the what exactly happened in the session. But I realized, wait a minute. Managing group dynamics is important when you’re doing any session. And so I studied and manage, about how to manage group dynamics, And then I became really an expert in that. So for example, how do you deal with somebody who’s difficult? Or have you ever had a session you’re working with somebody who’s a know-it-all or who’s disruptive, who are, who always interjecting or who talks and doesn’t let others, you know, talk, whatever the case may be. But my point is I learned how to deal with that, and now that’s part of the work I do is teaching leaders how to deal with those kind of disruptions.
Jess Dewell 09:53
That’s brilliant. How much compartmentalization comes into play?
Steven Gaffney 09:57
You mean in compartmentalizing a problem we have in one area, not letting it go into another?
Jess Dewell 10:04
What, what told you. Yes. That’ll be great. I like I like what came to mind for you. So yes.
Steven Gaffney 10:10
So I’m not very good at compartmentalizing. So I know there’s some people that are, and so what I’ve learned to do is I just gotta deal with the problem. So I’m the kind of person that if I have a problem, I’m obsessed with how to fix it. And so I’ve learned some strategies that help me manage stress. The first is whatever I’m upset about, I don’t keep it in my head. I write it down. And I write it down. I don’t try to make sense of it. And I don’t try to write it down in a nice list. I just have a, a legal pad or some piece of paper, and I just jot down thoughts as they come to mind. And it, I let it drain from my head to the paper. Then after that, and I feel like it’s all out on paper, I’ll let it sit, and then I’ll start to craft a response of what I’m going to do. So the thing I don’t do is keep it up here because it’s really ups… It, it, it makes it worse. So even if I’m about to go to sleep and something’s really on my mind, I’ll write it down because I don’t want my mind preoccupied with trying to remember it. I unload it on a piece of paper. So there’s a lot of ways I deal with it, but I’m not very good at compartmentalizing. And maybe there’s some experts that are, but you don’t hear something else, Jess, is often when people say they’re really good at compartmentalizing. I’m wondering if they’re very good at compartmentalizing or very good at lying. The reason…
Jess Dewell 11:23
back to that Because I wanna tell you, I, I would say I am decent at compartmentalizing, and you wanna know something? My first step is the same as yours, is to get it out. Because I because if I can’t get it out, it’s gonna it’s gonna be in the way of everything else. I can’t, I can’t keep it in my head and compartmentalize. My that is getting it out of me and into a space that’s with me instead of in me. So I moved it around. I know some people do it in their heads, and I don’t I actually don’t know how that’s possible because, you know, we, we have head brains, heart brains, and gut brains, and they all are influencing us in some ways. And so then you’re right. If somebody can do all that in their head and in the moment, what did you say about are they really compartmentalizing, or are they?
Steven Gaffney 12:07
Lying.
Jess Dewell 12:08
Yeah. Wait. Not that out loud.
Steven Gaffney 12:12
Because I’ll be if you met somebody who says, I don’t let this bother me. And I’m like, well, yeah. But sure I have a hard time showing it because they end up talking about it. Or how about somebody says, I’m over this. You know, Jess, I, I, I’m over it. But they keep talking about that problem. It’s I’m pretty sure if they keep talking about it, they have not let it go. In fact, one of the 12 essential elements I developed for creating a consistently high-achieving team is the person principle. The idea is letting it go, and it’s important. We have to let things go.
Jess Dewell 12:41
Yeah.
Steven Gaffney 12:41
But the way to let things go is to learn from the past and deal with the past so we can move forward. And we could talk about how to do that, but that’s a really important thing. But I think there are a lot of times I found people who say that you’ve let things go, really haven’t because they keep talking about it. And here’s something else to really consider, and I, I’m I know I’m on a roll here. So…
Jess Dewell 13:01
No. That’s good. Keep going.
Steven Gaffney 13:03
Is when people say time, time deepens wounds and deepens problems. Time does not fix problems. It, at best, can give you a perspective, and here’s my proof positive. If time really did heal all wounds, nobody would be complaining about their childhood. No one would be complaining about their parents. No one would be complaining about how they grew up because that’s been years. [It’s true.] They, time alone doesn’t heal all wounds.
Jess Dewell 13:34
Right.
Steven Gaffney 13:36
Changing your perspective in dealing with it does.
Jess Dewell 13:39
Share your thoughts and questions down below. I thrive on your feedback and engagement. You’re listening to the Bold Business Podcast on your house to Jess Dewell. This is your program for strategizing long-term success while diving deep into what the right work is for your business right now.
Announcer 13:53
You’re listening to the Bold Business Podcast hosted by Jess Dewell, a nationally recognized strategic growth consultant. She works with business owners and executives to integrate just two elements that guide business through the ups and downs of growth. Number 1, know what work is necessary. Number 2, do all the work possible. Schedule a complimentary consultation to find out more at reddirection.com.
Jess Dewell 14:22
There are people in my life that are very different than me. When, when somebody will have to bring up everything before we solve a problem, this could be a client. Right? This could be a workshop. This could be a group, kind of like what you’re doing, but it could also be at my day, at my dining room table. And it’s like the whole history with all of the things have to be said before you can go. And I’m like, why are we setting this up for failure? [Exactly.] What is that? What does that actually have to do with moving forward? And, and so to your point, I actually think that there’s something to be set. By the way, question 1 real quick. Just a get-her-done question is, is that actually self-reflection, or is that blaming others?
Steven Gaffney 15:11
In a way.
Jess Dewell 15:12
Meaning [Wait.] Just a second. In that situation where all the old hurts have to come up, is, is that something that you could see? Because I, I and I’m bringing no context to this, and I understand that every situation is different. But I look at that, and I’m like, I hear that it’s undone. Do we have to work over there before we can work over here? Or how much, how much does that matter to the outcome that we actually have to resolve to your point? Because if we’re gonna get in our own way, we gotta get the thing out of our way.
Steven Gaffney 15:43
So there’s a lot of things to be said with this, but I think I agree. It depends on the amount of time. So one strategy I use with a group so that we can deal with the issue is not to sit there and have a long conversation, but I take this distinction, what we notice from what we imagine, which is the 4th element of a consistently high-functioning team. But, basically, it’s a distinction between fact and opinion. [Mhmm.] You know, fact and everything else you could say. And so what we do is we split up a piece of paper or you could have 2 flip charts, but you I encourage the group to take that problem, and let’s have a dialogue. But as people share, let’s put it in the category of what, what are the facts versus everything else, the imagine, you know, thoughts, opinions, and conclusions. And, inevitably, what, what they discover is they don’t have a lot of facts on the situation. Mostly, what people are sharing is a whole bunch of opinions. They don’t respect us. They don’t care. You know, it’s never gonna work. It will work. We don’t need resources. We do need resources. All this are it’s okay that we have opinions and conclusions, but what are the facts? So important in getting when. Cause is what are the facts?
Jess Dewell 16:49
In this world where all of our own unique experiences coming to the table actually have value, and they always have, we’re just listening to them different today, we still have to overlay all of that individual experience regardless of our age, regardless of where we come from, regardless of our role because we all see something different. I mean, if we’re sitting at the dinner room to dinner the dinner table and it’s a holiday and you have a big meal, not everybody’s looking at the same side and it’s the same big meal. So that’s something we have to keep in mind too is our reality may be very true. How do we use data on top of that to understand what the facts are for the decision at hand?
Steven Gaffney 17:30
Absolutely.
Jess Dewell 17:31
Is that a good concept?
Steven Gaffney 17:34
Well, I think I, I love that. And I think then there’s other things that we can do based on the amount of time. So let I’ll give you an example. Yeah. When we’re somewhat short on time, which often we are Yeah. Is a way to turn a conversation that may be either blaming or just spiraling and not going anywhere. One way is like the notice and imagine that we talked about and what you added to it. The other is just, use a disruptive question and using essential disruption. A great question is to say, what would you suggest? So when somebody says, you know, Jess, I had this problem and it’s all and you could say, well, wow. Well, bottom line is, what would you suggest? That sounds like you’ve had a rough day. What would you suggest? And it will help push the person and alter the conversation from a blaming past-oriented conversation to a solution-oriented question or, or conversation. So in the book, I’m, Unconditional Power, and I, I write here a little little promo
Jess Dewell 18:29
Yes, please.
Steven Gaffney 18:30
There’s, it’s about how when we’re in a good mood, we’re smarter but and we can get it all into that, but there are 9 strategies. One of the strategies on how to do this is called intentional disruption, which is what I just went through briefly. And that is when a conversation is bringing us down and it’s not going in the right direction to change it to a solution-oriented conversation, and that’s used. What would you suggest? Another really great question is, what would it take for you to agree? What would it take for you to agree? So, Jess, you ever had somebody who just tells you no, I don’t agree? And then a great way to turn that around is say, well so what would it take for you to agree? What would I need to show you to change your mind? You ever deal with somebody who’s very self-righteous, and they’re always telling you how they’re right about their opinion and all that? Just say, well, are you open to changing your mind? And they’ll everybody has to say yes and say, okay. What would I need to show you that would prove to you [Uh-huh.] That what I’m saying is correct? Well, I don’t think you’re correct. Okay. What would I need to show you? And, inevitably, what it challenges that person is, is there anything that somebody could show them that would actually change their mind? In my experience, people are so focused on how they’re right. They don’t even look to say, what evidence would I need to be shown that would change their mind? Yeah. 3rd big question is saying, you know, can you live with it? Can you live with it? People waste a lot of time in life having just dumb conversations instead of saying, okay. This is kind of small potatoes, so to speak. You know, I understand we can go back and forth and try to work, but it’s a deal breaker, or can you live with it?
Jess Dewell 20:05
Did you do research behind it? What, what else? How did how did you come to that statement?
Steven Gaffney 20:10
First, what I noticed is myself. So almost everything I teach are stuff that I’ve suffered from. You know, people say personal development, self-help. I first I look at myself, and so that’s how I discovered this. [Uh-huh.] And what I noticed is that there’s some people in life that something bad or challenging happens, and they bounce right back. And then there are other people like myself that would get stuck in that for a bit. Now I would bounce back eventually and be optimistic, but it would take me time. And so I started down the journey. What’s different? What did they do that’s different than what I’m doing? And that’s how I came up with 9 specific strategies about changing our mood because that’s important as leaders. Right? If we’re leading a group of people and we’re stressed, they’re gonna be stressed. If we’re upset, they’re gonna be upset. If we’re mad, it’s gonna impact them. So our mood really matters. And then, also, these strategies in the book are how to get other people to change their mood. Because we can be in a good mood, but we can experience people who are really negative, who are trying to bring us down and not in a great spirit, and so we might have to work with them. So what do we do? We talked about intentional disruption as an example, but the idea is what do we do? Because when we’re in a good mood, we’re smarter. We come up with better decisions. Nobody ever says, you know, I was really stressed, afraid, and upset, and I make great decisions then. It’s not. It’s like that when we’re stressed, we actually can make not sometimes just dumb decisions. You know, there’s a book called The Biology of Belief, and I read this years ago. Fear makes people stupid. Now I do…
Jess Dewell 21:49
I love our inspiration points. Right? No.
Steven Gaffney 21:53
I do recognize fear can be useful. You know, like, you gotta pick. I said, why am I afraid? What am I gonna do? We just don’t ignore it. But I love it because you, you ever met a leader who distills fear in people. And when they’re instilling fear, nobody goes, hi I’m doing great. Or, like, nobody ever says, no. I wasn’t doing really well, but now that I have a micromanager in my life, I’m doing stupendous. Nobody ever says that. That brings out the worst in people, not the best in people.
Jess Dewell 22:20
If I were to be listening to this right now, and I’m recognizing that I’m feeling some strife somewhere in my world, and we’ve talked about what we’re actually being judged for, which is our results, what our goals are, which we might not know how to turn into measurable results. We’re talking about all of the patterns and the personalities and the approaches and the stuff that’s already in existence that has and the maybe that’s where I got from maybe that’s where I got potential instead of high achievements, Steven, now that I’m thinking about it because all of those things have the potential to be the next big spark for everything to fall together.
Steven Gaffney 23:02
Well, and to your point, even about full potential, it is really important. It is part of achievement. It’s intertwined. For example, John Wooden was a basketball coach who won 9 NC, Double-A Championships out of 11 and with 9 in 11 years. And so in order to do that, he couldn’t just do it with a couple of great basketball players. I mean, the team changed over. And he would ask his players at the end, forget about the score, essentially. You know, did you play your best? And I do think there’s a lot to do that. So high achievement is a lot to do with playing our best and getting the full potential. So I love what you were saying at the very, very beginning. I’m just saying it so it’s an and, not an or, or connection. Right?
Jess Dewell 23:45
Mhmm.
Steven Gaffney 23:46
All that’s important. I’m just saying, ultimately, when people look at that, even back to the John Wooden, we are judged by the score. That’s really it. So now what makes us have high achievement and, you know, and what we do about it? But I love the idea of full potential and, you know, not that anybody can ever necessarily achieve full potential, but who knows what we’re capable of? I’ll give you an example. Years ago, I wrote an article, and it’s still to this day, and people are welcome to it. Still to do this day kind of resonated the most almost anything I’ve written. There’s now other things that have resonate more. But I raised the question, what if Martin Luther King had just wanted to be a great preacher? What if he did? Right? So would have achieved that and he did, but he saw so much more potential in himself and what was a, what he was able to do. So I’m saying this because, you know, it’s interesting about potential because how do we know what we’re capable of? We are, I believe capable of so much more than we even realize. And so what limits our potential and what are we going to do about it? And so often when somebody says I can’t get something done, well, how do you know? All you can ever say is I’ve never done it before. You could say I’ve never seen it be done, but you don’t know that it can’t be done. I always think it’s fascinating to watch the news of some companies, some athletes, somebody will break the record, and people like, I didn’t even know that was possible. And then once they’re able to do that, it, it break it sets the forges a way for others to do it because now they know they can that it can be done.
Jess Dewell 25:19
Wasn’t that true for runners with the 4-minute mile?
Steven Gaffney 25:22
He broke it in 1954, but the most interesting part of the story is not that it had never been done. He broke it in 1954. The most interesting part of that story is in the next year, 16 runners broke that 4-minute mile. Why? Because they now knew it could be done.
Jess Dewell 25:37
I also appreciate this starting with what high potential means because now tell me if I’m wrong here. It seems like there’s an opportunity to do some sort of, well, looking at the results that we have and then being reflective in some ways to find out, well, how much do we have to cut through? What is already in place? Are we working on the right things? Are the right people in the right seats? Right? We think about some of all of those things. And then in general, I mean, I know I work with a different set of people than you do normally, so this is what I have noticed in large organizations is that the higher you are, the far the more removed you are from the day-to-day. Right? There’s a lot more ambiguity. And we’re responsible for taking into account, well, we’re we have to anticipate things. We don’t have to anticipate things in a lot of roles in a company and then actually in a lot of sizes of companies up to a certain point as soon as the need for anticipation occurs. That’s where I think what we’re talking about with this high achievement and can we did we even know it was possible, and can we see it becomes the catalyst to we’re, we’re gonna be happy where we are, or we’re not gonna be happy till we figure this out and go to the next level.
Steven Gaffney 26:49
Yeah. And how do we judge success? So a mentor of mine is, is Alan Weiss, and he wrote a book called Million Consulting. He’s written a lot of great books. Fantastic. But he always raises the question, you know, when somebody says, well, you know, we grew the company by 30%, and they’re, you know, congratulating themselves. Well, how do you know it couldn’t be it couldn’t have been 50%. Not to bring somebody down, but it really is interesting about and plays with things. What is our potential? And you could look at that as, okay, we gotta beat ourself up. I don’t look at it that way. I look at it as a way to create challenges. We…
Jess Dewell 27:22
I have a story that fits that, by the way. Isn’t it? I do. You might remember this thing called the dot com crash. I had a company that was acquired right before that, and my role and part of my earn-out was to grow this company to complete and get all the money that we were offered in our deal. Right? So I was like, okay. I’ll do that – dot com crash happened. I’m sitting in boardrooms. I’m sitting in meetings. I’m sitting in executive teams, and they’re all saying, we can’t. We can’t. We can’t. We can’t. We can’t. And the whole company not only didn’t grow to their goal, they missed it. And little old Jess, little old Jess had 20% growth, and nobody and everybody decided I was an anomaly. And I’m like, well, nobody told me it wasn’t possible because I didn’t believe you sitting in the rooms with you. Right? I just kept doing what I was doing. We kept looking for ways to optimize. We kept listening. We kept listening to understand what the needs were so that we could help our customers, and that’s what we did and we grew. So I was in a situation where everybody decided it and was able to write through and do something different anyway.
Steven Gaffney 28:37
Yeah. It’s amazing how people let the conditions dictate our life versus being, and that’s the whole idea of unconditional power [Mhmm.] Which is people live a conditional life. I can do that as long as we have more money, more resource, whatever. They create these conditions or limits. [Yeah.] Unconditional power says we’re gonna focus a 100% on what we can control. So, so what I love about what you’re saying besides it being a great story and a great example of the power of belief in making things happen is that it’s also you focused to imagine a 100% on what we can control. What we can control is to listen to our customers. What we can control is to try different things. We didn’t know it was not possible, and that’s great. Imagine you had somebody above you who kept hammering it’s not possible, not possible. Eventually, that impacts and infects our mind. So great leaders create a, a, an environment where anything is possible and play at that. You know? And so what I love about what you’re saying is you translated a principle into actual results. Right? [Yes.] And results. And I love it. You didn’t know it was not possible, so you…
Jess Dewell 29:41
I was like, like, what, what are you thinking? I’m like, look at what’s going on over here. How can what you’re saying be true? What can you say be true? I don’t understand that at all. And to your point about controlling the controllables and thank you, by the way, because I, I actually think it’s important because we’re always surrounded by people who are gonna remind us of our limits. [Yeah.] It is up to us to decide if it’s really a limit.
Steven Gaffney 30:07
Yes.
Jess Dewell 30:08
Tell me this. When you finished Unconditional Power, was it what you thought it was gonna be at the beginning?
Steven Gaffney 30:14
Like many books, it has many, many, many, many, many, many, many drafts to ultimately get that out. And so it, it, it, it took a life of its own and got and content was even more stronger than I ever dreamed it could be. But, again, it was around really thinking what strategies work. So every single strategy in that book I use. Another strategy in that book is about reframing conversations, you know, and how do you reframe it? But I’m gonna come back to your point about, you know, about limits and how we talk to people. So some years ago, I, I got a chance to talk to some students, and these are students who were pretty high achievers. And the person who asked me to speak to the students said, you could talk about anything you want. And I was like, well, talk about great communication, leadership, whatever. And I just thought, you know, what would I have wanted to know when I was their age? And that is not only to be dreamers, right? We’re all dreamers. When we’re young, we tend to be, but how to deal with people who try to squash our dreams. Right? It’s true about adults, but definitely kids. And so I, I taught them this great line. It’s a great line to use whenever somebody’s trying to crush your dreams. You just say, I understand. If I start to debate, no. I know it’s possible, and, you know, then they’re gonna debate me. If I start to engage, if I start to you just go, I understand, and then you just move forward. So just we had so much fun with this. I had them role-play, and one person was a big dreamer, and the other person tried to crush the other person’s dream. And then the dreamer would just say, I understand. Anyway, so anything else? And let’s move forward. And, you know, they had so much fun with it. So a great line that ends the conversation when you don’t wanna engage, because I’m big on engaging, but sometimes you just go, I understand. So I might go, even at work. Yeah. I understand. Anyway, so thanks for sharing. So let’s talk about what we’re gonna do next meeting. You just don’t engage. You just don’t have anything else? You’re not engaging. Did you did you hear what I said? Yes. I understand. That’s true. You said this won’t work. But I’m not saying I’m not gonna do it. I’m not saying that you just say I understand.
Jess Dewell 32:27
I like that better. I usually say okay, and then I move on. Although that could sound aloof, or it could sound like I’m dismissing them. I understand acknowledges more, and so I challenge everybody out there. What’s your go-to, and can you level up, or are you already saying this and you’re as awesome as Steve? That’s alrighty. Okay. So let’s talk about when we live in a world where so much seems unknown, out of our control. Everybody has a different perspective. Right? If I go back to the, if I go back to the holiday dinner or whatever that holiday is, everybody’s got a different seat around the table and they see something different. It’s all a company is. We all see something different from the view and the seat that we’re in. So when we’re talking about when we’re talking about all of this, we’re, we’re really talking about not even controlling the okay. Ambiguity. Okay. Other people’s limits. Okay. Other people’s points of view. Okay. Data to help sift all that. But, actually, think don’t we have to do some inner work too?
Steven Gaffney 33:24
In what way?
Jess Dewell 33:25
Meaning, well, we’ve got these tools, but we have to be able to be aware of and just be able to say, I understand without debate. We have to be able to say to be able, oh, I’m actually understanding what this is and ask a disruptive question.
Steven Gaffney 33:42
Yes. So I, I do think, and that’s what I love not only about the book, but I pride, or a very, a big part of our company is translating concepts into actual techniques about what to do. So it is important to give the concept, but then exactly what to do. So I understand is an example. You know, what would you suggest? What would it take for a degree? Can you live with it? Which we’re talking about before intentional disruption. We can talk about reframing. And even on the reframing front is how we look at uncertainty. I look at uncertainty as an opportunity. Think about it this way. If nobody’s told you you can’t do it, not only do you not know whether it’s possible, but seize the moment. What’s a great saying? Better to seek forgiveness and ask for permission.
Jess Dewell 34:25
That’s right.
Steven Gaffney 34:26
You know? And there might be some extreme examples of what not to do. But quite often, people live a life and they’re just waiting to receive permission. Move out. It’s here’s an easy example to test whether you live and seize the opportunity or not. You walk up when imagine this, you’re you’re walking up to a store and there’s a group of people standing outside. And you say, and they say, the door is locked. Are you the kind of person that says, well, let me try the lock. Or do you just take for granted what people are saying? If you take for granted what people are saying, that’s a problem because I can think of times in my life, and probably you can, where the prevailing thought, nobody really checked it out. They just kinda talked about it, so we just assumed that was a limitation. So are you the kind of person that will check the door for yourself and test the boundaries, or do you go on what everybody else is saying? Because that’s problematic because people get things wrong, and very often people aren’t testing it themselves.
Jess Dewell 35:26
I’m your host, Jess Dewell. We’re getting down to business on the Bold Business podcast. This is where we’re tackling the challenges that matter most to you with actionable and achievable advice to get real results that lead to your success.
Announcer 35:42
Focused on growth? Listen to more programs like this which support the challenges and opportunities you are working with right now. Come on. Search Bold Business Podcast for the key terms at redirection.com or your preferred podcast listening app.
Jess Dewell 35:58
If you’re not testing it for yourself, is it because you’re an optimizer? Is it because there was something else that came to mind before that? Is it because it doesn’t really matter to you? That was it. Right? And, and I think that’s important to know too to your point of engagement and being able to engage where we can make the most difference, where we can do the most good, where we can make the most connection.
Steven Gaffney 36:18
Yeah. It’s just interesting how, you know, even when we talk to a company or or or other people, things that that we need and people go, oh, that can’t be done and, you know, or, or and really testing the limitations. How about this? Even lines that people throw out to us. You ever call a company that go, if we did it for you, you’d have to do it for everybody else. You know what my response is? I won’t tell anyone.
Jess Dewell 36:40
Right. Right.
Steven Gaffney 36:41
Out. Right? So, so we can go on and on about it, but it’s just so interesting how people live their life. And what I’m so fascinated by is what makes consistently high achievers be able to do that, and they, they don’t live by the limitations. They create what they’re going to do. And when but it doesn’t mean turn a blind eye to limitations. It means just okay. So what are we gonna do about this? How are we gonna move forward? The example used, dot com.
Jess Dewell 37:12
What are the skills that I actually need to be able to take what you say and not be resistant to the actions you’re going to suggest in this book?
Steven Gaffney 37:20
There’s another chapter in the book about input drives output. Input drives output. [Mhmm.] And bottom line is we are impacted by the by the people we’re surrounded by. Somebody said years ago, we are a product of the 5 people we spend the most time with. Here’s the good news. We have a lot of control over that. Now you might say, well, people at home or at work, I understand that we can’t pick and choose everybody, but we can actually play with the amount of time we give people based on who we, how we want to be empowered in our life. And if you are leading, you know, being sensitive about that. So, for example, if you’re leading a team and even if it’s a very small team, and you got somebody who’s a jerk, but, you know, you rationalize, well, they’re very talented. Yeah. But then probably bringing other people down because we are impacted by other people’s mood, which is part of the passion around this book. So I am very clear and very intentional about who I allow in my life, and it doesn’t mean everything’s perfect. But I really take responsibility for who I choose to be around. Let me give people a specific example because you might have to use this concept. [Yeah. Yeah.] So in 2009, I suffered from cancer. I’m completely fine, but I had to go through an operation in chemo and stuff like that. But in 2009 was also the time of the great recession. So as you know, in the great recession, the first thing to often go is consulting training software type stuff. I don’t think it’s really stock. I think it’s really important.
Jess Dewell 38:49
But it’s really necessary. And you’re right. It’s on a line item. It does not weigh the same as rent.
Steven Gaffney 38:55
We can make an argument that it could make us create more money, which we would be able to pay the rent, but that’s not the point of my story. The point is that I couldn’t control that I have cancer, but that I had cancer, but I could control how I responded to the cancer. I could not control that the economy was headed in, in a recession, but I could control how I was going to respond to the recession. So I became very meticulous at that point as in other points in my life about who I’m surrounded by. I didn’t wanna be around people that said, oh, you know, it’s okay. Just do the best you can. It’s like, no. There are other people, and I use logic a lot, that whatever challenge I’m faced within life, somebody has probably walked exactly in my shoes and figured out the answer. So if ever I say something’s not possible, logic would dictate with 8,000,000,000 people on this planet, somebody’s out there. Have dealt with cancer, dealt with recession, and they figured out how to grow their business. It’s along the lines of what you said with the dot com example that you didn’t know any better, so you were like, we can get this done. And so what I decided to do is retool my business. And from that year on, from 2009 on to this day, we’ve had our best years by far in business. It’s not about me being smart or not smart. It really is about just focusing a 100% of my energy on what I could control. So we’re all faced with difficulties. Some way more challenging than I’ve ever faced. But my point is, what, don’t spend your life on things you cannot control. Focus on what you can control. Use your strategies whether it’s in Unconditional Power or whatever the case may be, but take charge of your life.
Jess Dewell 40:28
That’s an amazing story. There are so many people who actually had their own struggles and also their own businesses and did not make it through the Great Recession. So the fact that you are living proof of I decided where I wanted to spend my energy, I chose who get who I was giving my time to, and all of these and then, and then what else can I control? Who am I gonna listen to is incredible. So I hear a lot of curiosity in addition to possibly stubbornness, but also possibly just a willingness to not be defined by something else.
Steven Gaffney 41:05
You gotta take charge of your life. I’ll give you another example. When I started my business, the 1st 3 years, I didn’t really know what I was doing. I loved what I was doing, but I didn’t really know how to make much money at it. And I tunneled into an immense amount of debt. And there was a very good friend of mine, a buddy of mine who was really worried. He’s like, you know, Steve, how long are you gonna give this? You know, you’re going into a mess amount of debt. And, you know, when it was weighing on me, he’s a really good friend of mine.
Jess Dewell 41:29
Yeah.
Steven Gaffney 41:30
And so I finally, you know, taking charge of my life. I, I, I sat down with him. I said, look, I really appreciate our friendship. But and I got that you’re worried and you always could be, you know, share whatever. But I got the point. So we now have 2 choices. Either we take a sabbatical from our friendship until I get this right-sized or we move forward and continue being really good friends, but I no longer want you to tell me anything negative or that you’re scared around my business because you’ve already told me. I appreciate that. So it’s not like I’m ignoring feedback. But now that I got it, I just don’t want you to dwell on it. So two choices. Either you take a sabbatical from our friendship or we continue, but just you can say anything. Just no longer that because you already said it. And I’ll credit him. He said, you know what? You make a really good point. I am worried, but I will no longer bring it up, and he didn’t. And then, eventually, I figured out how to make money and, you know, discovered the 9 steps to working through any situation. It was a 9-step formula on how to have a difficult conversation and have it resolved with anyone. And so that was a big breakthrough in the business. And I’m saying this because this is not about him, and this is not about friends. It’s about taking charge of what I needed in my life. Other people may have not needed it. [Right]. And I wasn’t complaining, and I wasn’t blaming him. I’m just saying, this is the choice. And so that’s what I’m talking about is, stop blaming other people and say, what do you need in your life? And do what it takes to make that happen? As long as it’s legal and ethical, how about it?
Jess Dewell 43:03
When we start contracting as an individual or as a comp then definitely as a company, we end up not seeing more. And because we can’t we, we are unable to see more, we end up increasing our chance of, of risk of failure just for the very, for the very sense of we’ve decided we can control what we control, which is our cash outflow, but at what cost?
Steven Gaffney 43:28
What’s an example that you that you see that represents that?
Jess Dewell 43:32
So somebody told me today. This was really great. We were just checking in. I was having a great conversation. I decided to ask I told this, this business owner. I said, how is how is this working in your company? And I call, I call this CEO time or business development time. I call it a Present Retreat. So I said, so what’s how’s your Present Retreat going? And this business owner said to me, since I started taking protected time to work on my business, every month I see my revenue going up.
Steven Gaffney 44:01
Wow.
Jess Dewell 44:02
And it was because I needed to hear, I needed to do, I need to look at something a little different, and the result was there. So that is my example of what I’m talking about. The and with before that, they’re like, I don’t know how we’re gonna make money. We’re not doing this stuff. These are all the things that we have expenses for. I don’t know. I know I need to learn new things, but I don’t know how I’m gonna actually make that happen. And I said, just sit down and take time for your sell and see what you can see. And that was it.
Steven Gaffney 44:30
I love that because, you know, it’s taking an idea. Right? Okay. How are we gonna make money and saying, Okay, here’s a specific thing to do. [Yep.] Create protected time, and I love that terminology. That’s and, and the reason why is because some people live in the world called, you know, I don’t have time to do it. Well, here’s the thing. Whether you’re Elon Musk or you’re anybody else, we all have 24 hours in a day. That’s the great equalizer. So, you know, when we say we don’t have, time, it’s about how you prioritize your time. And so what I love what you’re saying is you could just you didn’t say it exactly this way, but a sense person. You can complain not enough money, or here’s a specific thing to do. Take protected time and think about and be strategic around what you’re going to do and see what shows up. And so that’s really important. Do we block off the time? Have a meeting with yourself. You know, people say, well, my calendar always gets filled up. Well, do you protect the time? Do you say, I have a meeting? I can’t move. And people say, well, I can’t I, I don’t have time to do that. I’m gonna say, well, I’m pretty sure that if, you know, god forbid, but a doctor called you up and said, look. I gotta talk to you, and I, you need to come into the office immediately. You’re gonna make that time. So Yep. How would you make the time? Because you would prioritize that. People say, well, but I would give up doing other things. Yeah. So maybe there’s some other things you should give up.
Jess Dewell 45:49
But are you making the best choice for yourself? Are you making the choice that’s aligned for your goals? Are you making the investment in what your team needs to succeed? Because guess what? The team doesn’t get judged on that CEO as you do. [Yep.] I’m gonna go back to what you said at the very beginning. Right?
Steven Gaffney 46:07
Well, it is so true. It’s that’s how we’re judging it. Then the idea is let’s look at where we’re wasting time. So there is to look at where we’re wasting time. Somebody who’s a low performer, and you’re not willing to pull the trigger and say, we gotta do something about that person.
Jess Dewell 46:19
That’s right.
Steven Gaffney 46:19
Well, I say pull the trigger. Hey. These days, you gotta be real careful. What I mean by that is, you know, do something with that person.
Jess Dewell 46:25
Hilarious. Yep. I, I’m so glad you called that out. That is in my vernacular as a, of course. But you’re absolutely right.
Steven Gaffney 46:32
What we’re talking about is moving that person, maybe finding another position for that person, or maybe just they’re no longer a good fit for the company. But whatever I, I that that would be an example. How often do are you spending time how often have you walked out of a meeting and thought that was a waste of the meeting? Nothing got accomplished. Well, that’d be improved. How often are people coming up to you and wasting time with just sitting there complaining, and you’re hearing them out, but not moving it forward by saying, well, what would you suggest? How do we fix this? What do we do moving forward? So when we look at our day, I, you know, and even people I’ve worked with, again, who are action-packed, a lot of times when I say, well, are you telling me I understand that you’re busy, but every minute was very productive. How often did somebody interrupt you with something that could have probably been waited till later or some kind of issue or back to the meeting example? When I ask people about meetings, it’s incredible what shows up about how wasteful a meeting is. Here’s an easy example for people who are listening or watching us, whatever. How often have you walked out of a meeting and not even known what the purpose of the meeting was? The purpose, let alone that nothing got accomplished.
Jess Dewell 47:40
You wanna know something? That’s how my Present Retreats got started.
Steven Gaffney 47:44
Really?
Jess Dewell 47:45
I was like, sorry. I don’t have time. I have to go work on my business. By the way, all the time, I’m like, nope. Okay. Cool. 20% of my week has to go. What went? The meetings. Anyway, you’re making such a good point, though, because meetings can. They’re a drain. They’re heavy. They create work. They solve usually little in there, and they don’t and it’s sometimes what you wanted the meeting to be about.
Steven Gaffney 48:13
I do a lot of work with advisory work with CEOs, executives, and whatnot of all different size of businesses. And it’s just interesting how a lot of my competitors or people that do similar work are trying to figure out how much they should charge hourly. And I’m like [Yeah.] That’s not to your advantage or the, the CEO’s advantage. They’re they want quick conversations. So if I can help them in 15 minutes, it’s more advantageous than saying, look. You know, you get an hour with me. That’s not a great thing. And so what I always do with my advisory work is wherever the agreement is unlimited amount of access to me.
Jess Dewell 48:51
Me too.
Steven Gaffney 48:51
I’ve never had anybody abuse that. In fact, the biggest part is getting people to use it because what I’ll do is I’ll help them, and then they’re good to go. So I’m saying is in a, is what are we doing? We’re creating problems rather than coming out from the other the other person. So it’s the other people’s advantage if we could do things quicker rather than charging hourly and whatnot and, and [Yeah.] Again, goes back to what people want as results.
Jess Dewell 49:29
What makes it bold, Steven? What makes it bold to commit to being a high-achieving company?
Steven Gaffney 49:36
There are many things that to consider, and we have the 12 essential elements of a consistent high-achieving team. They can go to our website, and we can send them a version of a brief version of that. But here’s where I wanna leave people with 2 things related to this. One is love is ultimately our north star. And what I mean is not so touchy-feely, but what do we love to do? So often when people are stuck in like, you know, spinning in their life, I’ll say, what would you love to do? And where would you love to take the company? Where would you love to take the team? Very often they are so focused on the problems. They’re not coming from where ideally they would like they’re living from what they think is possible rather than say, hold on, hold on. What would you love to do if I gave you a magic wand? Where would you like to take the team and the company? Let’s figure out what you ultimately would love to do, and then we can figure out how to get that done. So love is the ultimate North Star, and I think that’s important to run things by. The other thing is, something we didn’t get a chance to talk about is creating an environment to get the unsaid set. The biggest problem is not what people say. It’s actually what they don’t say to each other. We gotta get that unsaid said, but that only not only is about problems, but also ideas and also appreciations and dreams and all the things that we talked about. And so really getting that unsaid said, creating a you know, I often say, free the people. Free people to speak their mind, and then you’re gonna create a great product. So two things. Where would I love to go, and how do I create an environment where people can get the unsaid said?
Jess Dewell 51:01
Every single time I have a conversation, I take away something that I wanna share with 25 people. I know when you’re listening to this podcast, you’re also listening for that and will have something that you want to share. In the comments, I would like for you to engage with us. What is that thing that you wanna tell 25 people from this program? Here’s why it’s important. It’s important because, yeah, there are gonna be how-to’s. Yes, there are gonna be steps. Yes, you’re gonna be like, oh, I wish I wrote that down. I wish I wasn’t doing this and I could actually take action on that right now. But guess what? You’re not. So engage right now because that one thing you wanna share with others will be the thing that you can figure out how to incorporate in your business, in your workflow, in your style tomorrow.
Announcer 51:50
Wow. Jess hosts the Bold Business Podcast to provide insights for building a insights for building a resilient, profitable business by deeply understanding your growth strategy, ensuring market relevance and your company’s future. It is bold to deeply understand your growth strategy with your host, Jess Deuel. Get more information about how to drive solutions and reset your growth mindset at reddirection.com. Thank you for joining us, and special thanks to our postproduction team at The Scott Treatment.