Energize Your Team: The Power of Curiosity and Brave Belonging

Starting the conversation:

You can have “space” in your meetings, conversations, or company culture to unlock your team’s best ideas. It is the intangible connections that transform how your business scales, grows, and belongs — together. Heather Hester, Founder at More Human More Kind, shares how to be brave and honest about mistakes, as well as strategic challenges so that you can reach your growth potential.

Being curious and stepping into new dynamics is a tangible sign of bold leadership. It requires committing to courageous practices that ultimately make the greatest impact both in business and beyond. And it starts with you, as an authentic individual. You may already be experimenting and don’t know it. You can discover what you are already doing so that you can leverage that effort and model positive energy management and trust-building actions.

In this episode, you will hear that bringing more of yourself to every moment of your day will give you MORE energy; that experimentation is something we already do, so be intentional and use it to become in tune with the people around you; and that it is essential to work to shift the shame or embarrassment that holds us back from recognizing each person we interact with is extremely interesting. Jess Dewell talks with Heather Hester, Founder at More Human More Kind, about being BOLD and acting with courage even when it feels uncomfortable or risky.

Host: Jess Dewell

Guest: Heather Hester

What You Will Hear:

08:14 Experimenting in business and setting natural endpoints.

• Projects and experiments in business are often given specific time frames or goals to aid in evaluation.
• Two approaches to designing experiments: review dates and natural endpoints.
• Evaluating results helps determine which activities are worth continuing in the following year.

16:23 The emergence of “Brave Belonging” as a core theme.

• Heather Hester developed “Brave Belonging” in response to the increasing need for solidarity among marginalized groups.
• The concept highlights the intersection of courage and inclusion for those who feel pushed out.
• Curiosity and self-development of your Emotional Intelligence helps foster a sense of belonging.

22:17 The challenge and necessity of authentic belonging in business.

• Despite setbacks, efforts to create workplace belonging persist and require adaptability.
• Courage and creativity are necessary for organizations to reimagine inclusion.
• There’s uncertainty and risk in pushing forward, yet remains an essential business priority.

32:17 The “space between us” and how it shapes connection.

• Attending to subtle, unseen dynamics in group interactions fosters connection.
• Creating rituals and intentional practices can prepare spaces for deeper belonging.
• Noticing what’s beneath the surface is as important as attending to what’s explicitly communicated.

38:45 Understanding and practicing subtle communication for belonging.

• Establishing belonging requires sensitivity to nonverbal cues, energetic shifts, and the collective atmosphere.
• This level of communication goes beyond words to include body language and energetic connection.
• Cultivating these skills helps groups and families create environments where all contributions are valued.

46:31 Finding what makes belonging possible in today’s diverse world.

• Varied backgrounds in experience among people is a resource for collective understanding and growth.
• Valuing the differences present in each relationship allows for courage and deeper connection.
• Recognizing this “space between” can shift perspectives from conformity to curiosity and acceptance.

49:10 The pace and process of transformation in groups and business.

• Change in belonging and group dynamics takes time, often several months, but this is normal for real transformation.
• Progress depends on all group members reaching a point of curiosity and willingness.
• Genuine change in teams or families is a process, not an instant fix, and it pays off in lasting outcomes.

51:15 It is BOLD to build a culture where honesty about mistakes and strategy challenges is instantly rewarded as bravery.

Resources

• Why Free Speech Is Personal for Parents and LGBTQ Allies
• Raising Brave Humans in a Fractured World
• Empowering Brave Belonging

Transcript

Jess Dewell 00:00
The more that we can be ourselves, regardless of the volume, the more energy we will be able to embody and continue to use, to contribute, to learn, to develop ourselves.

Heather Hester 00:16
You will be so much more energized, so much less exhausted, because I think that we don’t realize how much energy we are expending.

Announcer 00:33
Every leader needs a trusted partner for the moments that matter. This Bold Business Podcast conversation is that partnership, your go-to resource designed to break the inertia and refresh your perspective so you can start making moves. Here is your host, an insightful truth teller who serves as the catalyst for getting the right work done and who asks the questions that truly matter, Jess Dewell.

Jess Dewell 00:59
There is something special about being in a space with people, creating at work, where we have solidarity amidst our sameness and amidst our differences. That opportunity to be curious, to work with each other, to develop something individually that wouldn’t have existed. I am so excited to have Heather Hester on the Bold Business Podcast today.

She is the host of the podcast, More Human, More Kind. She is also the author of Parenting with Pride. She speaks, she coaches, and she is an LGBTQ+ advocate helping parents, allies, and organizations move from fear to fierce, to be informed with love and clarity.

And what’s going to come out of this conversation and what I want you to be listening for are these three things. The more that we can be ourselves, regardless of the volume, the more energy we will be able to embody and continue to use to contribute, to learn, to develop ourselves. And second, we talk about how to experiment with this.

How do we experiment to become in tune with the people we are around beyond what we hear them say into what do their facial expressions say? What does their body language say? And what’s the space in between feel like?

And the third is that we’re talking about a shift. The shift from all of us being the same to, wow, each of us is so interesting. These are themes about brave belonging.

These are themes about being bold. These are themes about making a difference in our world today. And I’m excited for you to listen to my conversation with Heather Hester.

When you were preparing to join me, you saw what I sent you yesterday. And so I am curious, what’s been on your heart lately that’s really important when we’re thinking about business and how we come together and how do we develop that trust and true cooperation?

Heather Hester 03:23
I think this is such an interesting time of year to have that question and to have that conversation. For me specifically as a, currently I’m a solopreneur. So I’m in a space of really analyzing what worked really well this past year.

What did I really enjoy doing this past year? Because for me and for what I do, that is a big piece of do I like doing this? Do I enjoy, for instance, do I enjoy the podcast and everything that surrounds that?

How big of a piece of my actual business is the podcast? Is it something that I just do because it’s fun? Do I do it because it offers added benefit to my listeners because that’s really important?

Where does that rank? If I’m looking at this through just a pure business lens and then looking at pieces that just made a lot of sense for the amount of time that I put in and what came out, whether it was I got a few more clients from that or that really worked. I felt to either teach or talk specifically about one of my topics, whether it’s specifically supporting your LGBTQ kid or talking more broadly about boundaries.

So it’s a great question. There’s a lot of elements there that I think for me, this is the time of year that I look at these pieces and think, what am I going to carry forward into the next year? It was a good experiment.

I’m glad I tried it. I learned a couple of things from it, but we’re not doing that again. Okay.

Jess Dewell 05:14
So with the experiment piece, do you go into your new ideas with the concept that there’s going to be an end and an evaluation? Yes. Yeah.

How does that look from the beginning? Because I know I talk about this a lot and I know exactly when it’s going to end, whether we’ve achieved and I’m quoting that because there has been a result. Was it what we wanted?

Did it do all of the things? I choose a date for review because then it’s never accidentally never-ending.

Heather Hester 05:45
I like that. That is actually very smart. I do it a little bit differently and it’s something that I’ve just over time, I will insert right here, as a human being, I’m not a natural business person.

So that is my sweet spot. And my place that I come from is a place I’m a creative and I’m a writer. And so anything that is like strictly business-related is something that I have learned from somebody or it has been, it’s a learned trait.

It’s not a natural, my way of doing things.

Jess Dewell 06:18
So what I’ve learned is if there are 10 ways to do something right, there’s more likely 10 more nobody has really thought of yet to get to the same desired outcome. And I sure do love finding one of the 10 or the next 10. How cool is it to try something in a new way that really connects us?

Heather Hester 06:38
I totally agree. And I think that’s partially why podcasts like yours are so fascinating, because there is this opportunity to learn something from a completely different angle, from a way that you never thought about doing it before. And I think as a business person, whether you own a huge company or you are a solopreneur, you need to have that, let’s try it.

Let’s see what happens. And so having that like end date is great. For me, I do a lot of things are project-based.

Let’s say I’ve decided I’m going to launch a program. So I would put all of my, everything around that would be, I’m going to create this program. I’m going to launch it.

And I guess there is for a specific time, whether it’s three months or six months and let’s get all the data and those however many months. And then there is an endpoint to the, like a natural endpoint to the project. So it’s more looking at it that way, or I’m going to do three speaking engagements on this specific topic and see what the feedback is.

Is the feedback good? Do I feel, how do I feel in presenting this material? So that’s the angle I come at it from.

Jess Dewell 07:52
I think I do have a little bit of that. Usually, when I’m thinking about new experiments and trying something, it’s a system, right? So we can implement part of the system, but if we never get the results, if it drags out, how do you ever stop it at that loss of momentum point and having a hard stop gets us that opportunity.

Now, what I hear you talking about, if I were to say, so there’s this other part of business, the creative part, the delivery of information, the connection, and how is it resonating out in the world? And is it what I, it needs to be regardless of what I want it to be. But it sounds like you’ve got things that you want to achieve.

And as long as the actions are being taken to achieve them, right? Three, what is that? You said three speaking engagements.

That would be something. So that’s an easy number to get to. It’s not 10 million, right?

It’s not who knows how many I can get. Let’s say clear. So it is a natural end in that sense, isn’t it?

Heather Hester 08:53
You’re right. It is. I think just, I was thinking about that in a different way, but it is essentially the same thing.

I think to your point, it’s interesting. When I started my podcast six years ago, that was my first piece. And at that time I wasn’t planning on it being a of my business.

I didn’t enter where I am now thinking I’m going to create a business. I entered this thinking, I’ve got some resources and some serious life experience that I’m going to share with people because this is information that I know there are other parents and allies out there that need it. So I’m going to put together a website.

Let’s see how this website goes. And then I’m going to have a podcast. Let’s do a podcast, do all the things I need to do to figure out how to do a podcast, which you and I both knows a lot more than you might think when you start a podcast.

Yes. Right. Six years.

Congratulations. By the way, I’m going to just insert that’s huge. Thank you.

And it’s interesting because over time I’ve had moments where I’ve thought, why am I doing this? And why am I still doing this? Because it is, you don’t naturally get a lot of feedback unless people really love what you’re doing or really hate what you’re doing.

Like the average listener isn’t sitting down and writing you an email and saying, Hey, I really love this. Or I have a question. Can you answer a question for me?

People are generally just like solid. So your feedback is how many followers do I have? How many subscribers do I have?

How many unsubscribers do I have? It’s a little more fuzzy coming from a starting place of this is a passion project. And I just want people to feel supported and seen and educated to this is a vital piece of my business.

And this is how I meet new clients and grow my business and provide all of the support that has always remained the most important piece. We share that in common that why not podcast?

Jess Dewell 11:01
Let’s try this out and see. Mine also was not a core part of the business and it is, and I still love it. I’m not sure about you.

Heather Hester 11:10
Oh, I love it so much. Like I’m always amazed at how much I love it. Every time that I think you have your days where you’re just like, this is, it’s a lot because it’s a lot of work, especially if you want to create really good content.

And I refuse to do anything else. Like I refuse to put garbage out there, but yes, it is something that is it. So I’m just glad that I did it.

Announcer 11:46
Feeling stuck? Like what got you here, won’t get you there. The pressure to grow is on, yet the path isn’t clear yet.

You don’t have to walk that path alone. This is the Bold Business Podcast. Like and subscribe wherever you listen.

Your host, Jess Dewell, is the strategic partner you’ve been looking for, asking the questions that truly matter. It’s time to break the inertia and get the perspective you need to make your next move.

Jess Dewell 12:20
I’m talking with Heather Hester today, the podcast host of More Human, More Kind. Something that’s been on my mind since we first met was this concept of brave belonging. That was when you introduced that to me after we chatted, it was on my mind for days.

So I probably have already talked to seven to 25 people about this. By the way, and that’s why my podcast exists. If I was going to tell seven to 25 people anything, I might as well record it and see what happens.

And here we are. So now we get to hear it from you too. And in your arc, the six years that you’ve been doing this, when did brave belonging become a theme for you?

Heather Hester 13:05
I think it’s always been there, but it has risen to the surface over the past 18 months or so. And it has become, that is a program that I’m going to be introducing in the new year, a specific coaching program that is called Brave Belonging.

Jess Dewell 13:29
That’s awesome.

Heather Hester 13:31
Yes. And for parents specifically, as I’ve broadened in some ways, what I’m talking about and what I’m doing, I also have like my core that I go back to. And it’s typically the parents of LGBTQ kids.

And so the whole idea of brave belonging, I think has really become honed in the past 12 months as it is felt like, not just the LGBTQ community, but all marginalized communities have needed to be protected, have needed more and more of a place, have needed voices outside of their own to be in solidarity with them too. And stop me if I get too, if you don’t want me to be too political, I’m okay with you telling me to stop. Okay.

Jess Dewell 14:24
Well, where’s the scoop? Julie, a little bit of politics can go a long way to help foster good discussion. And thank you for the invitation.

I will let you know if I start feeling a little something.

Heather Hester 14:35
Okay. All right. That’s totally fine.

That’s where I was going. And I generally try to stay pretty neutral, but yeah. I also am reflecting back to our conversation and I felt like there, anyway, that is where it’s a little bit of, it comes from for sure is.

So there’s like the idea of belonging. Every human wants to feel like they belong somewhere. But when you have a person who just does not, either does not naturally fit in or is, we are in times like we are now and they are systematically being pushed out.

That’s when the courage part comes into play. That’s when the bravery comes into play. There is, it’s a little bit of a dance and it is a lot of uncomfortable, especially for people who like, this isn’t part of their natural state of being, which there’s zero judgment on that.

Most people, either they grew up that way and have always been that way, or it is a learned behavior. I think that’s the point.

Jess Dewell 15:47
And I’m going to tie it to some business concepts that we don’t learn until we’re in business. Like the book that came out, Everything I Learned in Kindergarten. I don’t know if you remember this book.

I only heard about it in business circles at that time when it was coming out. And so we had to learn as adults, how do we work together? And of course I was in the early stages of the high tech industry before and after the dot-com crash and how you move fast and how you scale and how you come together quickly and leave quickly without too much harm to people just in the…

because that’s what happened in companies. You got pulled over, you got bought up and let go. You were the one doing those things.

So there was not harm in the sense we think of harm, but harm in the sense of what just happened and all my work is gone and now I have to work with all these people I don’t know. How do I fit in here? To your point, how do I fit in here?

Right? So I’m speaking from a totally different place, Heather, but I’m also thinking that’s what came up for me and maybe we can be learning this here too again.

Heather Hester 16:56
Yeah, I love that. That is a totally new twist on that, that I hadn’t really thought about it in that way, but I think is very important considering where we are as a culture, right? And as society and as business people and as human beings.

I’m just thinking over the past probably five, eight, 10 years, I have not been in the actual workforce for so long. I have been a non-freneur and worked for myself for a very long time. So being in corporate America, I just know from friends, right?

And now from my kids who are going into that, but thinking about how it’s different than let’s say 25 years ago when I was in it. In some ways, I see where this effort to create belonging is there. And I think for a time there, that was a big effort and whether it was performative or not, at the base of it, it was an effort.

And now it’s been derailed a bit, but I feel like it’s not crushed and gone. It just has to look different. I believe there are people out there who are trying to like, let’s reconfigure this.

What does this look like now? And I think to do that, it requires courage and it requires creativity.

Jess Dewell 18:24
Can we do it outside of ourselves? Don’t we have to start with us or can we actually look to the outside and have somebody help us along this path and just follow along? How much, right?

Heather Hester 18:33
I think it definitely has to come from yourself first, right? Because you can’t do it in any authentic way if it’s not within you first. That’s when it becomes performative if it’s not within you first.

Jess Dewell 18:48
That’s a very important distinction. When we’re looking externally for the stimulus or the result that if that’s all we’re going for, how do we know we actually have that? How do we know it’s generative so that it can build on itself or even sustainable so that the energy is there for the connections, the people, the dialogue to continue?

The pressure to do more with less, the pressure to automate, the fear of what does that, what does technology, the new emerging technologies and AI I’m pulling out of that is even separate from new technology. What does that look like? And I think that just outside of ourselves and our own work for this concept of brave belonging, maybe there’s a way that we haven’t felt comfortable belonging and we need to fill our shoes better.

And that might even be some of the work that we do, whether it’s in our home first, with under our roof first, with the people that we work with, the places we volunteer or the other communities that we’re a part of. I almost wonder if that’s our takeaway challenge today, Heather, is where’s the place that we could practice for ourselves being more of who we are and practice with others to help them belong more and help them step into their shoes more too.

Heather Hester 20:12
I like that a lot. I think there is within that idea of looking within and connecting with who you are as a person. I think that it became and has become very easy to say, this is who I am at home.

This is who I am at work. This is who I am when I volunteer. And it’s exhausting because you’re not ever a hundred percent you.

And so I think like pulling that apart or backing that up or however you want to say it, and this does not have to be like a difficult months long project for yourself. It can be a little bit of self-reflection of who am I? What feels really good?

What pieces of me are just really wanting to come forward? What are my strong, strong pieces of my personality, strong pieces of who I am as a human being? And how do I take, just take one thread at a time and have that be the through line through all of your home, your work, your volunteer, your faith community, whatever, all the different pieces of you, all the different places that you go and do that like kind of one piece at a time.

But every single time it’s backing up into you. And this is something that you can do with your family, with your partner, with your kids, with close friends. You will be so much more energized, so much less exhausted because I think that we don’t realize until we do a practice like this, how much energy we are expending.

There was something about that a long time ago. Oh my gosh. It’s like flashing in my memory right now.

And it was almost like to put on the different hats. Like I think we were trained to go when, correct. That’s exactly right.

Okay. And I’m not, it’s like, it’s in there somewhere. It’s not coming out all the way.

But my point is that’s not, I don’t think that’s how we really move forward now. I think that we, that doesn’t work anymore. The way that we are going to be most successful in our lives, whether it is personal business or otherwise, is if we are fully ourselves, fully authentically who we are.

That’s right. Because then that’s when all the good stuff comes out.

Jess Dewell 22:33
Can you be your full authentic self at a level one volume versus a level 25 volume? Of course. Yeah, absolutely.

Heather Hester 22:43
Yeah. And I think that’s the way you do it, right? Like maybe you do dial yourself back when you’re in the board meeting with your CEO boss, right?

Who knows, maybe you don’t, but only you know. And I think there is that piece of trusting. You trust yourself, trust that feeling.

So many of us have been taught to not listen to that yourself, whatever you want to call it, your intuition, your gut, your, whatever your name for it is. We’ve been taught to only think, only use our heads. Don’t drop into your body, your body, your intuition, your soul, whatever you want to call it.

It really tells you so much and they’re connected.

Jess Dewell 23:19
By the way, I use all of those terms when I’m working with business owners and executive teams. Excellent. Because what’s going to resonate and they’re all welcome.

There’s a whole body outside of what’s between our ears that can help us out.

Heather Hester 23:35
Exactly. And I think that for many of us who are Gen X and older, that’s how we learned to go out into the world was to ignore everything that was going on from the chin down, right? It was all in the head.

You thought your way through everything. And the feeling part was very scary. Like you could not, you weren’t supposed to acknowledge that was just a mess waiting to happen.

Allowing those two to communicate is brilliance. Yeah.

Jess Dewell 24:05
And in the business world, we have all of our data and we have what we sense, what others sense. And I encourage and invite all of that to be brought to the table and you combine them together. And that’s actually where the themes come from.

Where is the opportunity? Where is the actual calculated risk? Which is coming from a hole.

And in an organization, it’s a bigger hole called business instinct. And what you’re talking about is an individual instinct. And I’m thinking to myself, there’s that, take me or leave me as I am.

And there’s danger in that too. I think there’s some inauthenticity around that. I feel like it’s almost like I want to force you to do something you might not be ready to versus I’m going to be here all me.

And I’d like to invite you to be here all you. And there’s a very big difference between take me or leave me as I am. And how do we connect and work together?

Heather Hester 25:03
And I think that’s where the work comes, right? There is the take me or leave me as I am is very rigid, right? Like even in your body language, just said it was like the wall.

It was like, this is it. And I think that’s very much of a defense mechanism. And that is okay if that’s where you are.

And there’s work to get to, oh, I really who I am. And it doesn’t matter if everybody else really likes me how I am, but I’m going to be who this person and I’m going to go into my situations. And when you go in more open, you become like the second, right?

You are here. I am. I invite you to be who you are.

That’s completely energetic, but that is something that it takes a little bit of work to get from one to the other.

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Jess Dewell 26:24
I’m talking with Heather Hester today, the podcast host of More Human, More Kind. One of my favorite songs is by Face Vocal Band. They’re based out of Boulder, Colorado.

And that’s actually where I first heard this song was a live concert of theirs before they got as big as they are. And it’s called Big Time. And it talks about the space between us.

So it was really cool to be in the audience, listening to this music and hearing those words. And I went, okay, that’s just going to be on my forever playlist anytime I need it. Anytime I need to reset it, it’s the space between us.

And that’s where I’m going to go in meetings or in facilitations or before I am in front of a group so that I’m thinking about what I can’t see as much as what I can see, because that feeling really matters. And it actually shows up in my chiropractic care too. I am a firm believer in whatever modalities that work for each individual person.

Chiropractic care network specifically tends to be my thing. And they talk about the space between us too. So all over if we will listen.

Heather Hester 27:31
Yes, it is being communicated in so many different ways every single day. And we just have to listen and all of us hear it differently. So the way I may hear it is going to be different than the way that you hear it.

Right. Yeah. So that’s one of those beautiful things too, but it’s also recognizing that doesn’t make my way wrong or your way wrong or somebody else’s way wrong.

They’re all right. We sit in meetings.

Jess Dewell 27:58
We’re part of a community group. There’s some, it doesn’t matter how the decisions are being made. It could be around the table under our roof, right?

Whatever that group is, as soon as one person feels defensive or closed or like they don’t belong, everything changes. And being able to tune into that is a really cool skill. And that’s what I hear us like starting to work, just touching the surface on here.

But if I’m in a meeting and I’m trying to work on belonging, or I’m with a very diverse group of people on purpose within my organization, and I’m feeling that, how can I, after the fact, probably not in the moment, but after the fact, be able to go, okay, I acknowledge that. And what are some questions or some approaches, an approach that somebody could use to help make that collective, instead of just between two people, like where we are right here, Heather, four people or 25 people or 500 people or more. I don’t know if it changes the bigger the group gets, or if there are things that we can set, like we set the table to eat a meal, or we were talking about having tea.

There’s a ritual, if you will, right? When you go to a restaurant, they bring you things in a certain order, whatever that is. I feel like there might be some things we could bring to those situations if we’re willing and ready to take that step.

Heather Hester 29:32
Yeah. Oh my goodness. Absolutely.

That’s such a great question. I was sitting here as you were describing each of those and thinking, when you said, oh, room of 500 people, my initial thought was, oh, I don’t know if I’d work there. And then I was like, wait, no, because think about when you are like, to your point at a concert, thousands of people, think about how like collectively the energy can shift.

Right? And nobody’s talking about it. It’s not like the person that’s 12 rows in front of you is, hey, I’m super happy now.

You should be too. It’s just like this flow of energy. And so I’m thinking in a business sense, in a meeting, to your very initial point of, do you say something at that moment?

I think you’re right. I think it’s something that you, as the leader of that meeting, acknowledge internally. Okay.

I’m clocking that. And it is a conversation that I want to have because I’m curious, not because this person’s in trouble or because I want to understand. And I think anytime that you approach anything like that with, I want to understand, you find out so much more.

You connect on a much deeper level. This is such a silly, basic example, but I was giggling as you were saying, even at the dinner table, because I can, especially my youngest, I can always tell when we have pushed him too far, when we have asked too many questions or he’s 18 and, or we’ve just given him a little bit too hard of a time, whether it’s about his grades or whatever it is, right. That he just, I can see the shutdown happen and then he’s done.

There is no coming back from that. And so there’s no, it doesn’t matter what anybody says, how funny anybody is, how much sensitivity I try to pull out at that point, it’s too late. So I think that can be a, it’s an experiment that works across all of these different lines, right.

And what it, what it boils down to is becoming really in tune with the people who are around you. It’s not just their words, it’s their facial expressions. It’s their body language.

People think it’s so silly to say, I felt it energetically, but you don’t realize that you do. It’s something everybody feels the energy. You just have to like take the time to acknowledge it or take, take that.

Maybe this is what we’re talking about that I’m like working myself up to with a lot of words is this whole thing is like a learned skillset of really subtle communication skills, but it works. And it is a way to communicate a lot of times without using actual words that people belong, that people are, it is a space where everyone can share their thoughts, give their ideas. I don’t like to use the phrase, a lot of phrases are like over like safe space.

It is what it is, but I, we need to come up with something else.

Jess Dewell 32:48
And it’s really interesting because while that’s what it is, when it becomes a buzzword, it does lose so much. To me, it’s a bummer when we have something that’s good that gets grabbed onto like that because yeah, yeah. It loses some of that.

So we’re thinking we’re noticing it. We get through our meeting. Maybe we figure it out.

Maybe we forget about it and it shows up another time and we have to remember a few times, but as long as we’ve stayed curious, it doesn’t matter how long it takes us. That’s my personal opinion. Now, sometimes there are things that accidentally close.

For example, I can think of a couple and I’m thinking back to the dinner table. We’ll just stick with that, right? Because it can happen anywhere.

And this happens regardless if it is with children, parents, regardless of our ages, friends and neighbors, right? Whoever just happens to be in that small intimate space, somebody says something and their response is shut down the conversation. It doesn’t matter what the words are.

And so now what do we do? That was a course correction in somebody’s belief, but was it really the collective belief? And was it, in my opinion, it’s never appropriate?

And was that something that I can use to increase my self-awareness because I felt it? And how do you have that conversation with that person? Or do you just accept where they are and not worry about it too much?

I have to worry about it sometimes.

Heather Hester 34:19
Yes. I think depending on the situation that you’re in, you most certainly do. I would say my initial reaction to that would be, I think you can approach it with curiosity of being like, wow, I felt that.

I’m worried about you or I’m wondering where that came from. I’m curious about where that came from. And they’ll either say, I don’t really want to talk about it, or they’ll tell you, or it could be a hard boundary that they had set with whomever they shut down that you’re not aware of.

And so they then explain to you, oh, I’ve asked this person 10 times to please respect whatever it was. I just needed to shut it down.

Jess Dewell 34:59
That’s actually a good opportunity. It wasn’t to everybody. It was in a particular situation that actually allowed everybody to stay together better.

Heather Hester 35:06
And I think even if it, let’s say, even if it weren’t that, that comes to me because I do teach a lot about boundaries. So that is a common conversation coming from the other side and speaking specifically about things that people that I work with. But in a more general sense, let’s say you brought that up to that person and said, I’m curious.

I’m wondering why, what happened there? Are you okay? However you wish to approach that.

And they don’t know why they did it. They’re, oh, that’s how I came across. I didn’t mean that.

So again, you’re curious. You’re not judging them, but you’re also offering them a ton of self-awareness. It’s an opportunity for them to be like, that is so not what I meant.

I did not mean for it to come across that way, or I’m having a really bad day. And so just really irritated me and I just snapped. It could be right.

So I think that to your point, you approach it with just being curious. I don’t think you can ever go wrong with approaching something with curiosity. Yeah.

It’s the being judgmental, right? Yeah.

Jess Dewell 36:14
Okay. So I’m thinking about the work that you do and it sounds like you’re working with individuals and families and family units. How do we be vulnerable?

That’s something that people get to the point of let’s be in tune and not use words. I’m all on board for that, by the way.

Heather Hester 36:32
It’s hard. I think sometimes, especially when you’re like on the spot and you’re thinking like all these words do come out and you’re like, darn it. That is not what I wanted to say.

Jess Dewell 36:41
I know. Vulnerability. Yes.

So I think that’s something people get excited about courage. They get excited about vulnerability. And at the same point in time, there are those people that are the exact opposite.

I just, maybe I can’t be bothered with that or nope. That’s just not for me. Please tell me where this stands and maybe I can improve right here.

Is if we think we’re one of those people and all we did was recognize the situation and an opportunity that caught our attention, whether that was something that we thought, whether it was something that we felt, whether it was just this gut instinct of something, because we all believe in that for ourselves in some way. And we approached it with another person and said, I’m curious. Isn’t that being vulnerable by default?

Heather Hester 37:29
Totally. Oh my goodness. Yes.

And vulnerability is one of those things that what it is for me is different than what it is for you, right? Because it all depends on where you are in your own personal growth and who you are as a human being. For some people, that’s what they can do.

And Bravo. Awesome.

Jess Dewell 37:47
So you’re, I’m talking to you listeners, people watching us on video right now, you are doing something that is like what we’re talking about. It’s up to you to find it and go, yeah, I am actually doing that.

Heather Hester 38:00
Absolutely. Yeah. None of this was ever honest in every single conversation I ever have.

Nothing I ever say is meant to make someone feel bad about where they are in their life, to feel shame in any way, shape or form. It is to acknowledge and to have you see the good, right? Of where you are the positive in what you’re doing.

The what is your one win, right? Like what is, because we can all improve. We can all learn.

We can all continue to be more aware, but we’re all also doing one little thing or are able to do one little thing.

Jess Dewell 38:45
One of the things I love about being alive in this time and this space, regardless of the challenges is that when we have so many people with so many unique experiences, it’s the only way for us to understand collectively what is possible. And that we really truly are closer than we may even realize. Oh my goodness.

Heather Hester 39:10
There you’ve hit the nail on the head there. That’s where it is. That’s the shift right there is seeing.

I’m going to use that. I hope you don’t mind. I’m going to borrow that.

I love that because it is the shift, like wanting to be, everybody should be the same. We should all be the same. We should be this way over here to recognizing that space in between and saying, that’s actually what makes each of us so interesting, right?

Is like seeing that space between me and you, me and my husband, me and my neighbor down the street, right? And being like, oh, this is interesting. I like this.

And I think that is also a part of the courage is saying no matter what you’ve heard, whatever you’ve read, whatever you believe that it is, it’s okay to acknowledge that space and love it and see that as, oh, this is what’s going to help us grow and move forward.

Jess Dewell 40:16
So in your work with the groups that you are working with, which are typically not businesses, how long does it take to gain momentum? How long does it take to actually leverage that more energy that we were talking about earlier in the program?

Heather Hester 40:33
It depends. I work within families. So within families, it really depends on how quickly each person is able to get to that space of, I’m curious, and not that shutdown closed, I’m not participating, or this is scary.

And that’s really all it is. Like this, it feels scary. And I typically I’m on the long side, six months.

Jess Dewell 41:05
Okay. So here’s, I’m thinking we have a cohesive unit. We’re trying to get more.

We’re trying to get to work together more. There’s some problem that we’re always getting stuck on and there’s a way to move it. Six months in the business world is nothing when it comes to change management.

Blink of an eye, everybody. This is what I’m hearing. So it comes back down, but I also heard you say it comes back down to when the last person in the, I’m going to call it the unit, the unit, the group of people to be able to be comfortable and claim, I am curious.

Heather Hester 41:39
And really all that is stepping outside of like your, like the stories that you’re telling yourself. It’s the taking that courageous step to be like, I’m curious. All right.

Jess Dewell 41:49
We’re going to try this. What makes the bold? I want to know what makes it bold to do the work, to be courageous, to say, I’m curious.

Heather Hester 42:01
I think just that action is bold because not, it’s hard to do when we’re talking about it, like it’s no big deal, but neither one of us would have jobs if it were easy. So being bold is another word for being courageous, being curious, taking a chance, doing something that might feel a little scary.

Announcer 42:35
And that brings us to the close of another powerful and fresh perspective on the Bold Business Podcast. In today’s volatile landscape, growth is a double-edged sword to truly thrive. You must engage with your strategy, not just react to the day-to-day.

Without absolute alignment, your company faces a stark choice, outmaneuver or be outmaneuvered, grow or get left behind. Thank you for listening. And a special thanks to The Scott Treatment for technical production.